.48 feels like AP2 finally passed AP1

[buttershrimp]

Maybe identifying vehicles is the first step towards "making operation decisions based on detected vehicle type." Despite the logical fallacies in your attack towards another poster, I'm sure even you can understand that it is impossible to make "operational decisions based on detected vehicle type", when in fact, vehicle type is NOT identified.

Seeing an accurate representation of the traffic around the car depicted with correct vehicle types in correct adjacent lanes adds a certain level of "trust" to the AP, that in fact the car is aware of its surroundings. In the current AP2 iteration, seeing lanes bouncing around and lanes where non exist, and semi-trucks represented as small cars next to me is not confidence inspiring.

This is not a difficult concept to understand.

One of my goals tomorrow is to compare anxiety ranger and TaoJones posts. Thinking maybe they are the same person. Probably aren’t, but I like frittering away my time in starange ways. Got a 7am Costco tire appointment with nothing else to do while I wait.

Criticism of Tesla can be separated into the following categories:
1) "Haters gonna hate" Because all they do is hate. Lives under bridges.... smells of horse taint.
2) "What's the point since we are all gonna die anyway?" Battery is half empty, and did I mention Feline AIDS is the number 1 killer of domestic cats?
3) "The spoiled and the acclimated": Ugh, I'm so tired of being married to a swimsuit model nymphomaniac.... always with the sex every SINGLE time I get home from work! II can't hear myself think and then it's "blow job" this and "blow job" that! Always with the blow jobs! I can't hear myself think! Thanks Tesla!
4) "Good ol' days": Remember the good ol' days with the piano black butt warmer? There was such attention to detail when my Tesla had the original 30 duracell battery pack
5) The angry sports fan yelling at the tv, "ahhhhh, we always fumble! .... Ohhhh Nice! ...... AHHHH you idiot Elon! ..... Nice job STRAUBEL REAL NICE! Because we REALLY NEED another door handle design that malfunctions! ... UGHGGGAAAAA Good thing we selected you in the FIRST ROUND KARPATHY!"

 

[TaoJones]

One of my goals tomorrow is to compare anxiety ranger and TaoJones posts. Thinking maybe they are the same person. Probably aren’t, but I like frittering away my time in starange ways. Got a 7am Costco tire appointment with nothing else to do while I wait.

Rah! RAH! Sis boom BAH! GoooooOOO Team!

And good luck with that; after all, mediocrity loves company.

if y’all want to believe AP2 is what you paid for a year ago and is to this day as good or better than AP1, then more power to ya.

Youse (that’s the collective youse) will be in good company with those who whine about negative feedback about service experiences and how “there should be more positive posts”. No, no there shouldn’t unless people feel like posting them. For you see, Tesla is well aware of their service metrics. 95% is not good enough. 98% is not good enough. Neither is 99%. Add a couple 9s and you’ll see what they’re spending a *lot* of money to achieve.

Similarly, whether you compare AP1 versus AP2, or whether you move the goal posts and now just focus upon AP2, it’s nowhere *near* good enough - see FSD now due in 2020. How ya feel now about shelling out that $3K a year ago, eh? Hey, I did it too. Doh. Just didn’t know it was gong to go toward funding new boards that then would be used to provide 4 years later what we were told was coming this past year. Hey, live and learn.

So... put FSD aside. How about stop sign reaction? Or just recognition? No? Hmmmm. Yeah.

So pardon the hell out of me if I don’t get all misty-eyed about less lane-wandering under vanilla conditions with AP2 that was a solved problem with AP1 almost a year ago.

As an owner who was persuaded by marketing to buy in early, I’m disappointed and out a fair chunk of change as a result, net net.

As an early adopter and as one who already went through a whole ‘nother set of issues with the first car, I choose to be amused.

As a shareholder, I’m appalled about the AP2 misrepresentations, very happy about the Model 3 and Semi progress (for which Elon and Jerome still have not gotten enough credit), moderately happy about the solar/battery business, and am undecided about a Tesla - SpaceX merger. Big picture: buy and hold, rinse and repeat.

 

[⚡️ELECTROMAN⚡️]

Rah! RAH! Sis boom BAH! GoooooOOO Team!

And good luck with that; after all, mediocrity loves company.

if y’all want to believe AP2 is what you paid for a year ago and is to this day as good or better than AP1, then more power to ya.

Youse (that’s the collective youse) will be in good company with those who whine about negative feedback about service experiences and how “there should be more positive posts”. No, no there shouldn’t unless people feel like posting them. For you see, Tesla is well aware of their service metrics. 95% is not good enough. 98% is not good enough. Neither is 99%. Add a couple 9s and you’ll see what they’re spending a *lot* of money to achieve.

Similarly, whether you compare AP1 versus AP2, or whether you move the goal posts and now just focus upon AP2, it’s nowhere *near* good enough - see FSD now due in 2020. How ya feel now about shelling out that $3K a year ago, eh? Hey, I did it too. Doh. Just didn’t know it was gong to go toward funding new boards that then would be used to provide 4 years later what we were told was coming this past year. Hey, live and learn.

So... put FSD aside. How about stop sign reaction? Or just recognition? No? Hmmmm. Yeah.

So pardon the hell out of me if I don’t get all misty-eyed about less lane-wandering under vanilla conditions with AP2 that was a solved problem with AP1 almost a year ago.

As an owner who was persuaded by marketing to buy in early, I’m disappointed and out a fair chunk of change as a result, net net.

As an early adopter and as one who already went through a whole ‘nother set of issues with the first car, I choose to be amused.

As a shareholder, I’m appalled about the AP2 misrepresentations, very happy about the Model 3 and Semi progress (for which Elon and Jerome still have not gotten enough credit), moderately happy about the solar/battery business, and am undecided about a Tesla - SpaceX merger. Big picture: buy and hold, rinse and repeat.

I only paid $2,500 for AP2 and it's been amazing watching it's progress. I'm disappointed that it was over-hyped, but that's the only thing I'm disappointed about.

 

[buttershrimp]

Rah! RAH! Sis boom BAH! GoooooOOO Team!

And good luck with that; after all, mediocrity loves company.

if y’all want to believe AP2 is what you paid for a year ago and is to this day as good or better than AP1, then more power to ya.

Youse (that’s the collective youse) will be in good company with those who whine about negative feedback about service experiences and how “there should be more positive posts”. No, no there shouldn’t unless people feel like posting them. For you see, Tesla is well aware of their service metrics. 95% is not good enough. 98% is not good enough. Neither is 99%. Add a couple 9s and you’ll see what they’re spending a *lot* of money to achieve.

Similarly, whether you compare AP1 versus AP2, or whether you move the goal posts and now just focus upon AP2, it’s nowhere *near* good enough - see FSD now due in 2020. How ya feel now about shelling out that $3K a year ago, eh? Hey, I did it too. Doh. Just didn’t know it was gong to go toward funding new boards that then would be used to provide 4 years later what we were told was coming this past year. Hey, live and learn.

So... put FSD aside. How about stop sign reaction? Or just recognition? No? Hmmmm. Yeah.

So pardon the hell out of me if I don’t get all misty-eyed about less lane-wandering under vanilla conditions with AP2 that was a solved problem with AP1 almost a year ago.

As an owner who was persuaded by marketing to buy in early, I’m disappointed and out a fair chunk of change as a result, net net.

As an early adopter and as one who already went through a whole ‘nother set of issues with the first car, I choose to be amused.

As a shareholder, I’m appalled about the AP2 misrepresentations, very happy about the Model 3 and Semi progress (for which Elon and Jerome still have not gotten enough credit), moderately happy about the solar/battery business, and am undecided about a Tesla - SpaceX merger. Big picture: buy and hold, rinse and repeat.

@TaoJones is a rare find. More of a spread between 3,4 & 5 in the BCS (Buttershrimp Criticism Scale). His parenting style is harsh, but you'll thank him later when you are stranded in Detroit with potholes a plenty and piecemeal autopilot code. Most people don't dislike what he's saying, but how he says it... with aplomb. He's old school Tesla.... a real Tesla sommelier, gotta respect a guy like that. Reminds me of a good journalist who will go after all sides... He wants to be cheered up by the likes of me. He's actual optimistic... but hates when people minimize his keen observations... he also feels guilty about getting rid of his AP1 car too early.... I think he made the right choice and just needs to go easier on himself.

Anxiety ranger likes to think he's like @TaoJones, but is a 2 on the BCS... he dabbles with optimism to keep us disoriented. He is a borderline genius... reminds me of a young Bobby Fisher... You think you know what he's going to say? Rook takes Knight Bitches! AR strikes again. I'd be disoriented without him.

Also, where the hell are the nerds when you need them? @verygreen and @lunitiks? WTF ?

 

[lunitiks]

WTF? This is becoming an online psychology class, can't see what I could contribute with. Well except for a cool meme:

 

[buttershrimp]

@lunitiks What could you contribute? A ****ing cycloptic cat analogy and the comment I said about @BLKTSLA I made earlier about the unified code set. .... get your damn memes out and your head in this game.... nuclear war if we don't figure this out.

 

[WannabeOwner]

Does AP1 slow down before a speed reduction sign such that it goes past the sign at the lower speed?

AP1 starts reducing speed only at the moment (split second) it passes the sign

AP1 drives like I do: enter speed limit zone at excess speed, slow down as-and-when. Well,it slows down more energetically than I do, but it doesn't start doing so until I pass the sign. On a downward slope I knock it into N and coast until I'm at the speed limit - why should I throw away all that energy (think ICE + Brakes?). If there are people about etc. then I slow down, but here in my part of the UK all the rural villages have moved the speed limit signs well out into the countryside and my slowing down takes place surrounded by cornfields.

But of course AP1 is wrong in this regard, it needs to be AT the speed limit as it passes the sign, and by the same token it needs to speed up as it comes out of the limit. Sometimes we have a 30 that is signed and becomes a 40, but in the majority of cases its just a delimit-sign. AP1 takes a significant amount of distance to decide what it should do. Why? I suppose that's a bit like me, at my age: "OK, out of speed limit, Remind me again what the national speed limit on a rural road is?" .. I mean ... we only have two choices - divided highway? 70 MPH. Non divided? 60 MPH, even at my age I've got that one cracked, and compared to me AP1 has a brain the size of a planet. I sure hope I don't break a leg getting off this soap box ...

I've yet to hear a cogent argument as to why it's important to have vehicle differentiation on the IC

I only use IC vehicle-display in AP1 out of curiosity, although it is regarded as cool by newbie passengers. I've built many a feature into our software, over the years, which we have only ever used to impress prospects in demos, and clients have never actually used in practice ... maybe Tesla have decided not to show that info from AP2 onwards?

Sophie's Choice

I don't think its an "impossible choice" because:

out a fair chunk of change as a result,

Tesla will need to see-you-right on that because:

Existing owners are their biggest fans. They also knew that a hunk-of-change was going into the pot for "betterment".

No further advances on AP1, no recompense for late shipping of AP2? Plenty of people have treated me like that in the past, and I voted with my feet. I am never doing business with Sharkleys ever again, nor with VW or any of their associated companies. If you need the names of some local plumbers I recommend that you avoid? PM me ...

I don't think that's the Tesla Way.

 

[daktari]

This is not whining, it is about comparing products - what is the best value? Remember they also doubled the price for AP, and got a lot of us to buy FSD also? When I bought, the smart choice would obviously have been an inventory facelift AP1, but marketing...
At the moment, Tesla is quite alone in the "autopilot" area, but that is changing. Nissan, Mercedes, Audi, hopefully Jaguar. Sad some of them don't have electric cars yet... But it comes down how important AP is for you when choosing that car. For me that was very important, and I expect to get delivered as marketed.
Is AP2 at parity? No, because of the sum of all the small hassles add up progressively. There are just to many of them at my roads. I understand other have other roads to drive and different performance. But after some 30+ fw updates, wow I think it is fair to expect performance at least equal to AP1. Basically no improvment for me since .38, now on 50.1.

Not sure why anyone haven't mentioned (pro-Tesla) MotorTrend's comparison: (Not knowing what fw that was, and how Model 3 AP compares to S and X of course.)

"As for autonomous-driving features, Tesla is not alone in edging EV drivers ever closer to a hands-free world. Longer term, the emergence of autonomous systems in electric cars means the battery will support the heavy power loads of self-driving’s computing and multiple sensors, and the awareness of its driving environment will stretch the batteries’ range and strategize the car’s navigation into the charging infrastructure.

When I originally sampled Nissan’s ProPilot Assist in Japan, I half wondered if it was just the jetlag. This thing seemed better than good. But upon returning to home soil, I felt the same reassurance when I tried the system in Detroit and now again after using it for several days in California’s high desert.

ProPilot Assist is outwardly quite simple—a single video camera, a solitary radar. But for single-lane driving, adaptive cruise control, and lane centering, it’s freakishly adept at centering itself between the lane stripes. It needs only a light hold on the steering rim—its hand detection is impressively sensitive.

How does it compare to the Model 3’s Autopilot?

Autopilot 2 is a suite of sensors (notoriously sans lidar)—configured with software to do (at the moment) about the same job as ProPilot, plus auto lane changing. Except it does it less well. But those pairs of extra video cameras on the Model 3’s flanks—paused, waiting to see the world—will they be the eyes of the first privately owned Level 4 car? That’s the promise.

Present day, Tesla’s autosteering tended to hug the left side of the lane. “ProPilot Assist was more fluid, though it was sometimes confused in the dark with dim lane markings or strong opposing headlights,” Hong noted.

Added Brooks: “The Tesla seemed to enter freeway turns well after a human driver would. At one point, it chose to drive over the Botts’ dots on the left edge of the lane for a good 20 to 30 seconds. ProPilot steered into curves without any lag—just like a driver would.”

We mentioned these irregularities to Tesla. The response was that its test vehicle was still being fine-tuned. We weren’t able to retest the vehicle once the system was functioning normally during the time we had all vehicles. We will be retesting the Model 3’s Autopilot system soon, so stay tuned."

Soruce: The Automobile 2.0: Chevrolet Bolt EV vs Nissan Leaf vs Tesla Model 3 Long Range - Motor Trend

 

[AnxietyRanger]

@Joe F @mkjayakumar

Your reading of my posts is unfortunately selective. As I said, AP2 will eventually surpass AP1. It just hasn't yet. Once it does, I'll be happy to agree and happy because that means my car will finally have surpassed AP1 too.

I get it that there can be some genuine differences of opinion as to when AP2 will actually reach AP1 parity and go beyond, but I just don't think we are there yet. No, this is not about whining, this is about objective observation.

Let's put it this way:

a) Win AP1 on features. AP2 has less features than AP1. There are several key ones, speed sign recognition for example a clear functional lack. AP2 has no feature that AP1 does not have. AP1 has several features that AP2 does not.

b) Tie AP1/AP2 on performance. AP2 is a mixed case of better or worse road performance compard to AP1. It is not obviously better at this either, at best one might argue the totality of it all is equal (personally I find this a bit suspect, but let's be generous).

= AP1 wins on features

And I'm IMO being generous to AP2 above and less than generous for AP1. There are still those who argue AP1, especially globally and not on speculatedly better mapped U.S. roads, is definitely more solid than AP2 on performance as well.

IMO this totality means AP2 has not yet reached parity, let alone gone beyond AP1. It is just simple math IMO. I don't see the path to victory on AP2 at this time, on current ground reality. But eventually it will, of course.

For example, when AP2 gets camera-based blind-spot detection, that might be enough to put it past AP1 on features. It would be a big feature. This would then help AP2 win or at least tie on features, which would help the overall math in AP2s favor.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

One of my goals tomorrow is to compare anxiety ranger and TaoJones posts. Thinking maybe they are the same person. Probably aren’t, but I like frittering away my time in starange ways. Got a 7am Costco tire appointment with nothing else to do while I wait.

Not this crap again.

Come on.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Now THAT is a much more accurate description of the software problem that must be solved! The consequences of this are that it muddies the waters and inadvertently pits AP1 against AP2. Sound like a dumb idea to do that? Yes! It creates a false comparison in so many ways. And yes, it sells movie tickets on the forum, but it's a waste of energy and brain power.

This also means another thing: It continues making the AP1 vs. AP2 performance comparison a bit difficult. What we know of AP2 today, and what we knew of AP1 yesterday, might not be an accurate comparison (not even today). AP1 performance has been changing too.

That's why comparing clear features is so useful. Anecdotal performance evidence depends on versions, it depends on roads we drive, mapping globally and so forth.

But features are clear differentiators. Today AP2 has less features than AP1. AP2 has no feature AP1 does not have. Once Tesla starts ticking these boxes, the parity comparison inches closer.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

By the way, guys, how about this for something positive: why don't I ever see you in my future feature speculation threads - wholly positive stuff IMO - what do you think? I've been doing this future speculation on TMC for years, cracking Drive PX, adaptive Model X spoiler, noseconeless Model X, Model X delay analysis and many things that should be interesting to anyone following Tesla. You guys only seek out where I have critiques, but most of my posting history on TMC is actually Tesla product watch and future product analysis.

The HUD Case - Mockup of what could be

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Criticism against @AnxietyRanger can be separated into the following categories:
1) "Haters gonna hate" Because all they do is hate. Lives under bridges.... smells of horse taint.
2) "What's the point since we are all gonna die anyway?" Battery is half empty, and did I mention Feline AIDS is the number 1 killer of domestic cats?
3) "The spoiled and the acclimated": Ugh, I'm so tired of being married to a swimsuit model nymphomaniac.... always with the sex every SINGLE time I get home from work! II can't hear myself think and then it's "blow job" this and "blow job" that! Always with the blow jobs! I can't hear myself think! Thanks Tesla!
4) "Good ol' days": Remember the good ol' days with the piano black butt warmer? There was such attention to detail when my Tesla had the original 30 duracell battery pack
5) The angry sports fan yelling at the tv, "ahhhhh, we always fumble! .... Ohhhh Nice! ...... AHHHH you idiot Elon! ..... Nice job STRAUBEL REAL NICE! Because we REALLY NEED another door handle design that malfunctions! ... UGHGGGAAAAA Good thing we selected you in the FIRST ROUND KARPATHY!"

There, fixed it for you.

Join me on my positive threads. Say something nice.

 

[jimmy_d]

As an owner who was persuaded by marketing to buy in early, I’m disappointed and out a fair chunk of change as a result, net net.

I wish there was an button for "I sympathize".

 

[Joe F]

@Joe F @mkjayakumar

Your reading of my posts is unfortunately selective. As I said, AP2 will eventually surpass AP1. It just hasn't yet. Once it does, I'll be happy to agree and happy because that means my car will finally have surpassed AP1 too.

I get it that there can be some genuine differences of opinion as to when AP2 will actually reach AP1 parity and go beyond, but I just don't think we are there yet. No, this is not about whining, this is about objective observation.

Let's put it this way:

a) Win AP1 on features. AP2 has less features than AP1. There are several key ones, speed sign recognition for example a clear functional lack. AP2 has no feature that AP1 does not have. AP1 has several features that AP2 does not.

b) Tie AP1/AP2 on performance. AP2 is a mixed case of better or worse road performance compard to AP1. It is not obviously better at this either, at best one might argue the totality of it all is equal (personally I find this a bit suspect, but let's be generous).

= AP1 wins on features

And I'm IMO being generous to AP2 above and less than generous for AP1. There are still those who argue AP1, especially globally and not on speculatedly better mapped U.S. roads, is definitely more solid than AP2 on performance as well.

IMO this totality means AP2 has not yet reached parity, let alone gone beyond AP1. It is just simple math IMO. I don't see the path to victory on AP2 at this time, on current ground reality. But eventually it will, of course.

For example, when AP2 gets camera-based blind-spot detection, that might be enough to put it past AP1 on features. It would be a big feature. This would then help AP2 win or at least tie on features, which would help the overall math in AP2s favor.

Not selective at all. AP features are lane keeping, speed matching and lane changing. Both AP1 and AP2 are, as we're all aware, made with different H/W and core S/W. Both perform the stated objective of AP. As we're all aware as well, they do so using different methods. One can argue that one is better than the other, and as we're all too painfully aware, some of us constantly complain of those differences to the point of being reminiscent of petulance. It's tiring, and considering none here can address those negative opinions to effect a change, what's the point?

To repeat the point: The end features are the same, the internal methods are different.

For those complaining AP1 has features like rain-sensing wipers, that's not an AP feature. Get over it.

For those comparing AP1 vs. AP2 driving performance over the roads they travel, how can some gathered here do so when they've never owned an AP1 Tesla to make such a comparison? Talk about anecdotal evidence. Please make it go away.

While one can argue one method is better than the other, so what? AP1 detects speed limits by reading signs. That's very nice, and I doubt no one can argue it's not, until a sign is missed by passing or stopped traffic. Then what? AP2 using a third party database works, but is woefully incorrect in too many cases. While we can complain about it here, we'd be complaining to the wrong party. Make your voice heard to Tesla. Register your complaint where it will do the most good. We all should.

 

[jimmy_d]

I also wish there was a button for (this is not about you TaoJones) "don't hijack my thread, asshole".

 

[AnxietyRanger]

For those complaining AP1 has features like rain-sensing wipers, that's not an AP feature. Get over it.

Let's put it this way. If the only difference was rain-sensing, I'd agree. (That said, it is interesting to note that rain-sensing now apparently is an "AP feature", from AP2 onwards, so it is not surprising people are watching the topic on Autonomous Vehicles forum.)

While one can argue one method is better than the other, so what? AP1 detects speed limits by reading signs. That's very nice, and I doubt no one can argue it's not, until a sign is missed by passing or stopped traffic. Then what? AP2 using a third party database works, but is woefully incorrect in too many cases. While we can complain about it here, we'd be complaining to the wrong party. Make your voice heard to Tesla. Register your complaint where it will do the most good. We all should.

I am passing no judgement on "so what". I am interested in the objective status of the situation. Speed sign recognition is a genuinely important AP feature related to speed matching. If people are putting out the idea that AP2 has reached AP1 parity, I am expressing my opinion on that. It is useful for people considering purchase decisions to know the status.

Both AP2 and AP1 use a speed sign database, like most speed sign recognitions in the last decade. But AP1 also has actual speed sign recognition to improve the results, again like most speed sign recognitions in the last decade. AP2 does not. Add to that more limited auto lane changing and less visual IDing in AP2. That simply means AP2 has not reached feature parity yet with AP1.

"So what" is wholly subjective. I am merely interested in the objective status of what's what.

 

[lunitiks]

There, fixed it for you.

Join me on my positive threads. Say something nice.

Where did you find that @buttershrimp quote? Thanks anyway, laughed my ass off

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Where did you find that @buttershrimp quote? Thanks anyway, laughed my ass off

Right there in #81.

 

[lunitiks]

Allright this is probably a false positive, but something really weird/promising happened today in my AP1 model S.

So I stood dead still behind a stopped car before a red traffic light. TACC (but not autosteer) on.

When the light turned green, my car immediately started to roll - while the car ahead of me hadn't moved. So my car stopped again.

Could/should be a coincidence; my radar/cam could've "lost" the car for a second.

But I'll post this here now, in case it's reproduceable.

Still on 2017.42.a88c8d5