80+ year old Mother-In-Law 26 solar panels and Two batteries

[GWord]

Here is her contract redacted
https://pdf.ac/u63KI

Somehow I missed this post with the actual contract link. I answered my own question. The contract states that the customer is responsible for net metering service. Other than telling SunRun that their installed Tesla Gateway has garbage connectivity, maybe the last thing to do is just verify that LUMA is providing a net metering service to her account: https://lumapr.com/residential/renewable-energy/?lang=en That will ensure that any excess solar generation beyond what her home and batteries soak up will be credited back to her bill (i.e. that she's not donating it to the grid).

Like Redhill_qik said above, maybe over payed but there's some warranty and support value baked in there too that a non tech savvy octagenarian is probably going to appreciate. And you might appreciate it too if you're her de-facto "tier 1" tech support.

 

[vickh]

Most of the usage is coming from the grid and not the batteries because the batteries are currently setup to only provide 20% of their stored power, holding the rest in reserve.

Unless I am mis remembering, Puerto Rico just came through some fairly extreme weather conditions, so trying to look at any sort of production and say "its normal" or "its not normal" during those times is not appropriate.

As for the contract, as was already stated, "it is what it is", its already signed, and there is nothing you can do about that portion of it unless you want to try to take them to court for being predatory or something (saying that your mother in law was not capable of making a financial decision).

Unless you actually are paying for that, I would let that part go. She made that decision, you may not like it, it may not even be great for her, but she didnt consult you before doing it, and unless she is not mentally capable of making her own decisions, she made that one on her own so digging through it isnt going to help you, or her.

Of course, everyone deals with these things differently, but I dont see a good outcome with you focusing on the contract other than conflict with her, or making her feel uncomfortable.

this might qualify for elder abuse (my in laws are going thru this w/ a scam med. provider)

 

[Redhill_qik]

Here are screenshots of the solar tab. The system goes from charging to standby and then no data available, Why?

One possibility is that Tesla thinks that the system doesn't have PTO and it is being limited, another possibility is that the inverters are faulty and shutting down, another is that the CT, current transformers, have been installed incorrectly and the system isn't measuring the data correctly.

What about the Powerwall tab for these days? Is it showing that it is discharging after the solar shuts down? That contract indicated that there were 24 inverters which is one per panel. Maybe something is off there. Again, Sunrun tech support should be out there to debug what is happening with the system instead of you from thousands of miles away.

Have you tried the Sunrun monitoring app? Solar Energy Monitoring App | mySunrun | iOS & Android

 

[holeydonut]

Dang, that is $101,500 over 25 years... I can see why OP is pissed.

This lease is likely going to be a slug collateralized against the house. Which means it'll be a mess to resolve during probate. Who knows if they end up having to buy out the lease for some ridiculous premium if they have to liquidate the home somehow during the 25 year term. I don't how they do living wills and home title transfers in PR, but this type of thing does feel kind of predatory since it's targeting someone who likely will never see the expiration of the 25 year contract.

 

[idanny76]

That clause for after the initial term of 25 years and you can terminate the lease at that point with no buyout. Your MIL will be 105 at that point, so..... During the term it i a 1.9% increase/year. It is interesting that they chose these numbers as 1.9% compounded over 24 terms is 1.571 and multiplying by $291.22 = $457.51.
View attachment 861177
Weird that the 1.9% isn't in the right cell, might be the PDF site that you were using though as there is some other broken formatting in the document.

Sounds like she is overpaying somewhat, but she does get a battery system for when the power goes out, has a known rate increase per year versus the giant increases that Puerto Rico is seeing and Sunrun is on the hook for all maintenance including battery replacement. IMHO, the extras might make this not that bad of a deal, but any buyer of the property will need to assume the lease.

You need to get Sunrun to live up to their service statement on the first page "We monitor the system to make sure that it is working properly."

It is 1.9%.... There is some minor glitched on the document, because I had to use Google translate from Spanish to English, but its mostly an overlaping type of issue with the PDF. All the numbers are correct.

 

[idanny76]

Most of the usage is coming from the grid and not the batteries because the batteries are currently setup to only provide 20% of their stored power, holding the rest in reserve.

Unless I am mis remembering, Puerto Rico just came through some fairly extreme weather conditions, so trying to look at any sort of production and say "its normal" or "its not normal" during those times is not appropriate.

As for the contract, as was already stated, "it is what it is", its already signed, and there is nothing you can do about that portion of it unless you want to try to take them to court for being predatory or something (saying that your mother in law was not capable of making a financial decision).

Unless you actually are paying for that, I would let that part go. She made that decision, you may not like it, it may not even be great for her, but she didnt consult you before doing it, and unless she is not mentally capable of making her own decisions, she made that one on her own so digging through it isnt going to help you, or her.

Of course, everyone deals with these things differently, but I dont see a good outcome with you focusing on the contract other than conflict with her, or making her feel uncomfortable.

I totally agree. I was just concern that if the solar did not provide the power she needed.... it will cause her to pay two bills with their limited income. Just wanted to make sure the system is working as it should. But yes..... I will backoff and let her deal with her decision, since she decided to do it without consulting with me. She kept the whole thing in a secret from my wife and I and when we could advice her, it was too late. We thought it was a bad deal, but she thought it was best for her. Your point is well received and I will let this go.

 

[idanny76]

Dang, that is $101,500 over 25 years... I can see why OP is pissed.

This lease is likely going to be a slug collateralized against the house. Which means it'll be a mess to resolve during probate. Who knows if they end up having to buy out the lease for some ridiculous premium if they have to liquidate the home somehow during the 25 year term. I don't how they do living wills and home title transfers in PR, but this type of thing does feel kind of predatory since it's targeting someone who likely will never see the expiration of the 25 year contract.

I think she did it, because she knew she might not be alive to see the full contract through. But it is also kind of selfish, because she might not be there, but her husband will and also what kind of inheritance will you live the grand kids. I plans to pay off my house in a couple of years and will be leaving it as an inheritance to my kids. That's just my opinion. I wouldnt want to have a so called UCC-1 aka lien on my property. I would rather pay for the solar system cash or a personal loan, but nothing that is attached to my property.

 

[holeydonut]

I think she did it, because she knew she might not be alive to see the full contract through. But it is also kind of selfish, because she might not be there, but her husband will and also what kind of inheritance will you live the grand kids. I plans to pay off my house in a couple of years and will be leaving it as an inheritance to my kids. That's just my opinion. I wouldnt want to have a so called UCC-1 aka lien on my property. I would rather pay for the solar system cash or a personal loan, but nothing that is attached to my property.

Yeah, Sunrun's sales tactics convinced her that the solar would simply pass to the kids or would actually add value to the home.

What is sad is that the only thing passing to the kids is a liability for 25 years to pay off the solar bill. And the Powerwalls don't even have a 25 year life, so there's a chance in a decade there are no functioning Powerwalls but whoever has the payments has to keep paying regardless. On top of that trying to sell a house with a solar loan/PPA is difficult without some wacky exit/penalty... so this is an all-around drag.

I hope you figure out what's going on with this solar system so at least some value is obtained. Does the system mention a production guarantee? Most solar arrangements like this have language describing a minimum kWh in the first X months.

It's stories like this that I think PG&E is referring to when they say Sunrun is a predatory company that doesn't have homeowner interests in mind.

 

[Redhill_qik]

And the Powerwalls don't even have a 25 year life, so there's a chance in a decade there are no functioning Powerwalls but whoever has the payments has to keep paying regardless.

The contract explicitly says that the batteries are covered for replacement.

Pg7 - C.1.b- Equipment warranty. Sunrun guarantees all equipment during the Initial Term. If parts including, without limitation, any battery or inverter should fail during the term of this Agreement, Sunrun will use commercially reasonable efforts to replace it with like equipment; however, you agree that due to the availability of parts and other factors, this may not be possible.

Maybe they are counting on ESS decreasing in cost over time for the same kWh of storage due to technology advance or that they will last for long enough that only one replacement is required. The last part about availability does seem likely to be applicable as I can't see that inverters and ESS become extinct as a product category.

@idanny76 Scan the original signed contract and put the original in a safe place. Sunrun or its successors may not believe that they agreed to some of these terms and will need these to hold them accountable.

 

[holeydonut]

The contract explicitly says that the batteries are covered for replacement.

Maybe they are counting on ESS decreasing in cost over time for the same kWh of storage due to technology advance or that they will last for long enough that only one replacement is required. The last part about availability does seem likely to be applicable as I can't see that inverters and ESS become extinct as a product category.

Goddamn I keep forgetting you actually read this paperwork stuff…

 

[jjrandorin]

One possibility is that Tesla thinks that the system doesn't have PTO and it is being limited,

Its possible, but (and im not sure if someone already said this) we had another member here from puerto rico say they did not have to wait for PTO there, and this OPs app shows PTO = yes I thought (although I might be mis remembering as I type this).

 

[jjrandorin]

Your point is well received and I will let this go.

I think you should still help them look into the production part of it. I dont think your MIL would receive that poorly ("Im just trying to look at it to see if its working like its supposed to") which is different than the contract stuff.

FWIW, I happen to think its pretty predatory from the local sunrun people. I had something similar happen with my mother about 10 years ago when she was still living on her own instead of living with my sister as she does now/

It wasnt solar, it was a Home phone + Security system (ADT) type thing. Some door to door person had convinced her to swap over her home phone to some new plan, as well as sign up for 3 years of ADT at some top tier etc, and a super predatory price. I assume you feel now like I felt then. I bit my lip though, and let it go back then cause she "could afford it" and I felt like the reason she didnt ask me about it is because she didnt want me to shoot it down / wanted to still feel independent.

Anyway, before I overshare some more, Ill be quiet on this topic (lol) but I think she would appreciate you continuing to look into the production. Hopefully we can help you with that here.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Its possible, but (and im not sure if someone already said this) we had another member here from puerto rico say they did not have to wait for PTO there, and this OPs app shows PTO = yes I thought (although I might be mis remembering as I type this).

One of the posted app screenshots showed an "advanced option", that I don't think is in my app, with PTO/Permission to Export set to Yes. However, I think that there may be some multiple system interaction issues as this is a hybrid Sunrun/Telsa system with a Sunrun meter box that is supposed to be controlling the system.

I also found this little bit in the contract when I was looking at battery clauses.

Sunrun appears to be using the Powerwalls in the system to minimize imports from the grid and they are claiming control over these. Using the Tesla app to interact only with the TEG/Powerwalls might be causing some problems versus using the Sunrun mysunrun app that is connected "wirelessly" to the Sunrun meter/controller. I can't find details on what wireless protocol, but hopefully it includes LTE/4G.

 

[vickh]

Yeah, Sunrun's sales tactics convinced her that the solar would simply pass to the kids or would actually add value to the home.

What is sad is that the only thing passing to the kids is a liability for 25 years to pay off the solar bill. And the Powerwalls don't even have a 25 year life, so there's a chance in a decade there are no functioning Powerwalls but whoever has the payments has to keep paying regardless. On top of that trying to sell a house with a solar loan/PPA is difficult without some wacky exit/penalty... so this is an all-around drag.

I hope you figure out what's going on with this solar system so at least some value is obtained. Does the system mention a production guarantee? Most solar arrangements like this have language describing a minimum kWh in the first X months.

It's stories like this that I think PG&E is referring to when they say Sunrun is a predatory company that doesn't have homeowner interests in mind.

yeah gives all solar co.s a bad name, like a time share company.

 

[Icebox_inel]

I think she did it, because she knew she might not be alive to see the full contract through. But it is also kind of selfish, because she might not be there, but her husband will and also what kind of inheritance will you live the grand kids. I plans to pay off my house in a couple of years and will be leaving it as an inheritance to my kids. That's just my opinion. I wouldnt want to have a so called UCC-1 aka lien on my property. I would rather pay for the solar system cash or a personal loan, but nothing that is attached to my property.

a Powerwall group from Puerto Rico

Tesla Powerwall Puerto Rico | Facebook

Grupo con la intención de discutir las experiencias con Tesla Powerwalls. No ventas. Nada de lo discutido en este grupo es necesariamente la opinión de Tesla. No tome por un hecho, nada de lo que se...

www.facebook.com

 

[idanny76]

Update:
My mother-in-law just got her bill from Luma Energy of $218. So, I did a chat online with SunRun through her account and they said she does not have Permission to Operate yet. Then my questions is...... How can she get a bill of $218 from Luma Energy, when all this time she has been using her solar system? I did some searching and found out that if the meter has not been switched and she has the solar system running without PTO..... the meter will count her solar usage as from the grid, because the meter cannot go backwards. Meaning that if all her usage was solar.... the meter will read it as it being from Luma Energy. Is that correct?

 

[jjrandorin]

Update:
My mother-in-law just got her bill from Luma Energy of $218. So, I did a chat online with SunRun through her account and they said she does not have Permission to Operate yet. Then my questions is...... How can she get a bill of $218 from Luma Energy, when all this time she has been using her solar system? I did some searching and found out that if the meter has not been switched and she has the solar system running without PTO..... the meter will count her solar usage as from the grid, because the meter cannot go backwards. Meaning that if all her usage was solar.... the meter will read it as it being from Luma Energy. Is that correct?

It "could" be, it all depends on the physical meter. We have no way to verify that for you, and neither do you unless you are on premises, run the PV system and see if it is producing more than house load, then go look at the physical meter and see if its recording negative numbers.

 

[Redhill_qik]

Update:
My mother-in-law just got her bill from Luma Energy of $218. So, I did a chat online with SunRun through her account and they said she does not have Permission to Operate yet. Then my questions is...... How can she get a bill of $218 from Luma Energy, when all this time she has been using her solar system? I did some searching and found out that if the meter has not been switched and she has the solar system running without PTO..... the meter will count her solar usage as from the grid, because the meter cannot go backwards. Meaning that if all her usage was solar.... the meter will read it as it being from Luma Energy. Is that correct?

That seems like the most likely reason, and if she does not have PTO then the system should be turned off to prevent any exports unless SunRun can configure the system like Tesla can to not export pre-PTO. Did you ever get SunRun to explain all of the weird readings? Did you switch to their monitoring system instead of Tesla's?

 

[idanny76]

That seems like the most likely reason, and if she does not have PTO then the system should be turned off to prevent any exports unless SunRun can configure the system like Tesla can to not export pre-PTO. Did you ever get SunRun to explain all of the weird readings? Did you switch to their monitoring system instead of Tesla's?

I just contacted this morning through email IONLEED the company that did the install. SunRun said I should call them for any questions. But according to SunRun she does not have a PTO. I will wait for their reply and see what the explanation is for her system running without a PTO and why does she have $218 bill when she is running on the solar system. I doubt her system exported $218 back to the grid. I was waiting for her first bill to arrive to see how everything was working..... but today I find out she doesnt have a PTO. But according to my mother-in-Law the system is fully functional. Waiting for IONLEED to reply and confirm if she has or not PTO and why was her system left on.

 

[jjrandorin]

I just contacted this morning through email IONLEED the company that did the install. SunRun said I should call them for any questions. But according to SunRun she does not have a PTO. I will wait for their reply and see what the explanation is for her system running without a PTO and why does she have $218 bill when she is running on the solar system. I doubt her system exported $218 back to the grid. I was waiting for her first bill to arrive to see how everything was working..... but today I find out she doesnt have a PTO. But according to my mother-in-Law the system is fully functional. Waiting for IONLEED to reply and confirm if she has or not PTO and why was her system left on.

I thought that someone from puerto rico told us that there was no PTO requirement there, but I dont remember which member that was.

Also, while you probably are aware of this, just in case you arent, typical PV production right now is going to be about 1/2 of what it is from april (ish) to septemer (ish), so any "I want to see how the system is working / generating" evaluations need to be done with that in mind.