85 kWh battery removed from design studio

[3mp_kwh]

CPO Model S's are cheaper and better than buying brand new

For the RWD large battery buyer, an 85 is now $8,000 cheaper before the first $1 of discount. The new 88k base price, to get out of the 70kwh car, is high enough that I imagine a lot of folks will take a second look at inventory/CPO. Tesla may even have partly had that in mind, depending upon inventory.

I agree, the sad part is the "you want more range, then you want AWD" assumption. I suppose they wouldn't have done it, if AWD weren't so popular.

 

[Buckeye2320]

I could see the 60 and 85 packs being used for the Model 3. If the Model 3 is starting at $35K then a 60, but a range extension upgrade gets you a 85kk for $10K more.
Model 3 Base - 60Kw - $35K
Model 3 Upgrade/Fully Loaded - 85Kw - $55K
Model S Base - 70Kw - $65K
Model S Upgrade/Fully Loaded - 90Kw - $100K

gives you a good range (price and distance) for both models.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I could see the 60 and 85 packs being used for the Model 3. If the Model 3 is starting at $35K then a 60, but a range extension upgrade gets you a 85kk for $10K more.
Model 3 Base - 60Kw - $35K
Model 3 Upgrade/Fully Loaded - 85Kw - $55K
Model S Base - 70Kw - $65K
Model S Upgrade/Fully Loaded - 90Kw - $100K

gives you a good range (price and distance) for both models.

Apples and oranges. First, the M3 is not built on the MS/MX platform, so it's not like they are physically interchangeable. Second, TM has already indicated that the M3 will use new chemistry and form factor batteries from the Gigafactory. So who knows what the eventual capacity for the M3 will be when it actually enters production.

 

[Buckeye2320]

I understand that that the 3 will have a new platform, but that doesn't change the marketing or pricing gap between models. This is part of the reason for the phase out. The new form factor batteries still may only produce 60Kw with 200+miles. And as we have seen with the Model S and Model X, Tesla offers 2 battery pack sizes. So the assumption would be that they would offer 2 battery pack sizes for the Model 3 also. Most likely a 60kw base and something like a 80Kw/85Kw upgrade.

 

[HankLloydRight]

I agree that they will likely offer two battery sizes, but what they will be, and the range they'll produce are still unknowns (to us).

I don't see any reason to stick with a 60/70/85 numbering scheme that worked for the MS just because they are numbers Tesla has used before. Since there's essentially no relation to a 60kWh pack on the MS and the 60 kWh pack for the M3, I'd say they should actually stay away from re-using the same numbers, so there's no confusion between the different model lines.

 

[dhanson865]

I could see the 60 and 85 packs being used for the Model 3. If the Model 3 is starting at $35K then a 60, but a range extension upgrade gets you a 85kk for $10K more.
Model 3 Base - 60Kw - $35K
Model 3 Upgrade/Fully Loaded - 85Kw - $55K
Model S Base - 70Kw - $65K
Model S Upgrade/Fully Loaded - 90Kw - $100K

gives you a good range (price and distance) for both models.

Apples and oranges. First, the M3 is not built on the MS/MX platform, so it's not like they are physically interchangeable. Second, TM has already indicated that the M3 will use new chemistry and form factor batteries from the Gigafactory. So who knows what the eventual capacity for the M3 will be when it actually enters production.

My guess in another thread was

Model S80 (2017)
Model S100 (2017)

Model 3 - 65 (range similar to a S80) - 2018 version
Model 3 - 80 (range similar to a S100) - 2018 version

Model S85 (2018 version)
Model S105 (2018)


or in other words I think the spread will be closer together for the Model 3 base vs upgrade but the Model S will continue to have a range advantage for the price premium.

but even then I don't think his numbers are outside the ream of plausibility, I just expect they'll make sure to market the range as being similar to the bigger pack size in the S/X.


See Will the Model 3 be Ludicrously Fast? - Page 6 for my full post on the subject (much longer post)

 

[GasKilla]

I'm also considering to eliminate the premium audio and using that "credit" to pay for the upgrade to the 90. I can put in the aftermarket subwoofer later.

I'm fairly certain the wires to the (UHFS) subwoofer location aren't in the in the car if you order the standard sound package, which means you end up taking apart a lot of the car to get the wires to a subwoofer in the trunk. If that's cool with you then no problem.

Why not consider a 70D? Do you plan on taking regular road trips? There is only a 30 mile range difference between the 70D and 85D. Are those 30 miles worth $10k?

 

[theslimshadyist]

This is a B$ forced upgrade move by Tesla. Not happy about spending $3K more for an irrelevant range upgrade.

 

[InternetDude]

For all we know they might have run out of 85 batteries already and are software limiting 90 batteries as 85's. I think dropping the 85 was inevitable given the 90 intro.

 

[brkaus]

I feel like they should be numbering based in range. M3-200 or M3-265

 

[VictorOsaka]

Is this old news or new news? Tesla to drop 85kWh?

Here is the article: Tesla Motors, Inc. Drops 85 kWh Model, Simplifies Lineup -- The Motley Fool

I'm not surprised however.

 

[GoTslaGo]

Relatively new, just a couple of days ago. Preceded by Canada last week or so.

 

[widodh]

There have been multiple topics about this already on the forum. Please continue on those threads

 

[whitex]

I think you didn't completely get his point. He never wanted them to offer the 90 at the same price, but just give people the opportunity to buy the old 85 in time. They would not have to annoy anyone short term.

No, I got the point. The point that you missed here is that Tesla needed to reduce the number of different batteries they carry in order to streamline their productions. So, given that only 2 batteries were to be offered, which one did he want Tesla to remove - 70 or 90, just so that 85 can still be available? Do you think removing 70 or 90 would upset more or less people than removing 85 option? And if you are talking only for a short time, Tesla did that already. They announced last year that the 85KWhr battery is going to be sunset. They also took the 85 off the Canadian site ahead of time, which made TM and TMC forums, so anyone on the fence following either forum had to know that 85 is going away soon. Btw, when 70KWhr battery came out, it was more expensive too. Today S70 is the same price as S60 used to be (actually cheaper since the $2000 supercharging is now included, plus S70 comes with more standard hardware too). I suspect 90 will follow the same path, give it a year or so, there will be some price shuffling and you will be able to get S90D for the similar price as S85 last week. You may even be able to get the S90 again, Tesla did once go all AWD, only to return the RWD a short time later.

 

[Chickenlittle]

Here is the article: Tesla Motors, Inc. Drops 85 kWh Model, Simplifies Lineup -- The Motley Fool

I'm not surprised however.

Have wondered whether this is related to better energy density or increased cells?

 

[Tellotes]

For all we know they might have run out of 85 batteries already and are software limiting 90 batteries as 85's. I think dropping the 85 was inevitable given the 90 intro.

They haven't just yet. March is the last month they're producing the 85kwh battery. I got a call from tesla forcing me to take delivery for a 85D in March I want my June delivery then I must upgrade or downgrade.

 

[chriSharek]

I talked to my DS and he said it wont matter that I ordered the 85. It will be built as said, no bait and switch. Im sure if you ordered the 85 you will get the 85 regardless. I think it would be cool to have the firmware limited 90kwh battery with the option to upgrade later. That would make most sense if they did phase out the 85 completely without manufacturing or remanufacturing them.

As long as you take delivery before 3/31. I want to wait another couple of months . . . so I have to decide.

- - - Updated - - -

I'm fairly certain the wires to the (UHFS) subwoofer location aren't in the in the car if you order the standard sound package, which means you end up taking apart a lot of the car to get the wires to a subwoofer in the trunk. If that's cool with you then no problem.

There are all kinds of Youtube videos showing how to add the amp/sub. Not an issue, but thanks.

 

[wdolson]

Have wondered whether this is related to better energy density or increased cells?

It's better energy density. Panasonic added a small amount of silicon to the anode which increases the energy density. Silicon works better as an anode than graphite, ie produces more energy, but it comes with a drawback. When graphite absorbs ions, it doesn't change in size much, but silicon expands as it absorbs ions. A high concentration of silicon in the anode can make a battery much more energy dense, but it won't last long because each cycle of charge and discharge will expand and contract the anode so much it will fall apart after a few charges.

Putting a small amount of silicon in the anode gets some benefit from the silicon, but it won't be enough to tear apart the anode after a few charging cycles.

If you want to learn the basics of batteries and the various technologies, here is a good place to start:
http://batteryuniversity.com/learn/article/types_of_lithium_ion

 

[stan70]

Non-P - you just get 15 miles more range.. no faster.. P90D >> P90D with ludicrous mode get you the few points of a second quicker that P90D Insane.

A more critical query is the new battery chemistry, which I suspect was done by adding small amounts of silicon to the anode to increase storage density... Tesla could create a car with several hundred miles more range today, but it wouldn't last very long due to degradation of the anode. Interesting to see whether this new battery chemistry degrades faster than the tried and trusted older battery tech.

More importantly for 85D drivers, i thought that battery packs came in sections so you didn't have to replace the entire battery if some cells were down... if they are no longer manufacturing the older battery chemistry, what are the options for current owners. I was dissuaded from getting the up 90D upgrade... not sure if they did me a favour (cycle degradation) or not (replacement parts?). If the latter, my Tesla might be staying in Tilburg....

 

[stan70]

hmm... "software restricted" 85 as some have thought would be wonderful would be truly awful... don't mind getting a 90 battery pack or an 85.. software restricted 90 would be poor, although I guess you would be just charging to a lower % charge level... The comments about increased silicon is what made me reject the battery upgrade and stick with the 85D.