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A few (early) 3 questions

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Currently in a '17 M240i with manual transmission, 25k miles. I love the car, but I realize I'm an ideal candidate for a 3. 95% of my driving is in town, with a 15 minute commute to work. I just drove my cousin's X (first time in a Tesla), and was blown away by the build, the handling, the punch. It was really fun to drive (though I do love my manual)! I have a few early questions.

Other than the 95% of my driving that's in town, almost all of the rest is a 240 mile round trip to visit family. Am I right that this will be just outside the "usable" range for the long range 3, meaning I'll have to make provisions to charge it somewhere along the trip? What's anticipated in terms of range improvement in these cars over the next several years? What comes to those who wait??

It looks like my M240i is worth about what it would cost to lease (all in) a 3 over for three years. Curious what sort of operating costs (non power) you're seeing in the early years of lease/ownership. I'm presuming very low...which is where I am now in the BMW...but I anticipate maintenance will begin creeping up as I put more miles on the car. These operating savings would help offset the "loss" of not owning what would then be a five year old M240i when the lease on the Tesla ends (I have historically driven cars for far longer than three years).

Finally, the nearest dealer/service is about an hour from where I live. Others without local dealers have any regrets about buying "out of town"? Guessing service needs (not sure how the remote service works...what might I need in the initial three years of ownership that would require a trip to the dealer, versus what can be done by remote service) are minimal for first few years.

Thanks.
I 2nd what @MapGuy did. I also used ABRP to check out my commonly travelled long-distance routes, to see what is and isn't practical. I don't want to stop and charge for more than 15mins to do my routine trips, because I currently stop for 10 to 15 mins for a pitstop and a coffee in my BMW 330xi. I want it to be exactly the same as I've been doing for 40 years. Until the Model 3, it wasn't possible, now it is, and so I got my LR-AWD. But it was running simulations thru ABRP that convinced me that the time was right to buy. ABRP also allows you to run any number of other BEVs to see if there's any chance that another BEV might suit your needs, or whether you can buy a MR or SR+ instead of a LR. That sort of thing.

As for costs, I usually keep my cars for 200k+ miles. My 2001 BMW is up to 220k+ miles. Every time I take it in, 2x a year, I spend $1000. That's the way it's been for years now. The Tesla is bound to be alot less, but I can't vouch for that since I've only had it a year!
 
OP: Have you checked yet if there is a supercharger near your route? If yes, you will have zero issues and this whole discussion is unnecessary. If you find you have to charge at your family's home, check if they have an accessible dryer outlet. That would easily charge a Model 3 overnight (but you need an adapter from Tesla).

In general, I really think you're overthinking this. ;) Like most owners, you will likely find that range is no issue at all with the LR and LR/AWD Model 3.
 
240 miles is a "piece of cake" in a 3 LR? My cousin tells me that his X showed maximum range the day he drove it home, and has been lower since. Is it not recommended to limit charging to something below 100%, and to avoid going to 0% (or close)? Or should I assume that periodically I'd be okay to stress the battery for 240 mile round trip...charge it to 100% and (if necessary, with no trickle/SC/destination charge halfway through) draw it down close to 0%? As noted above, it will be rare when I'd drive the car more than 30 miles in a day, so my typical push on the battery will be modest.

If you frequently charge to 100% and discharge to near zero, it will shorten the life of your battery. But if you do that occasionally, the difference will be minimal. Since you say that 95% of your driving is short trips, I don't think the full charge will be a problem. And you won't be discharging to near zero unless something unexpected happens, since you'll always want to allow yourself a buffer.

As for using cabin heat: You could make the cold-weather drive in shorts and a t-shirt and crank the heat up to 78° Fahrenheit, or you could wear long pants and a jacket and set the heat to 65°. Of course, as others have noted, if there's a supercharger on your route, a few minutes charging will give you a lot of added miles of range. When I took my one long road trip (before moving to Maui, where there are no long roads) I stopped at a supercharger with IIRC 60 miles remaining and in the time it took me to eat the sandwich I'd packed and visit a rest room I think I'd added something like 150 miles of range. Superchargers are fast when your battery is low. They slow down as you fill up.

The 2020 Roadster will have a lot of range but it's because it has a huge battery pack. It's not because of more advanced batteries.
 
Sounds like 240 mile round trip might be a bit much on LR 3, particularly when variables like temperature come into play. Would 10-12 hours of trickle charge at my destination (this would add 20-40 miles of range, yes?) be enough to make this "work"?

Yup.

This would effectively negate any losses for the car sitting unplugged, and add at least 30-40 miles of range back on the vehicle.

You'd likely be able to make the round-trip in any (remotely navigable) weather at that point.


That said- there's almost certainly going to be at least 1 supercharger on your route, and 5-10 minutes stopping there would add as much or more than 10-12 hours plugged in would if you want to be extra safe/paranoid about it.


S
Also, what's known about expected life of the batteries? My thinking on leasing vs. buying was that it makes sense to date the technology, not marry it, presuming battery performance will deteriorate over time (and battery technology will improve over time).


batteries will improve over time- but most folks expect 300-500k miles out of the Model 3 batteries... (there's a Model S recently in the news north of 600,000 miles on its second battery pack and that one remains strong- and the 3 has newer battery tech/cooling/management in comparison to the S)
 
Appreciate all the thoughts. Test driving a 3 later today.

A few more questions...

Why did you decide to lease or buy? I've never leased cars, as I've never felt I needed a new car every 2-3 years. Happy to drive them far longer. But considering lease here...as I said earlier, seems to make sense to "date" the technology (including potential degradation in battery) rather than "marry" it. What did you decide, and why?

How is highway noise? CR suggests it's loud (and not just because the engine is quiet). Do you miss leather seats in a car this expensive? Is CarPlay coming? Rarely anyone in my back seats (other than the dog)...are they comfortable enough? What else has left you wanting? Thanks.
 
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Appreciate all the thoughts. Test driving a 3 later today.

A few more questions...

Why did you decide to lease or buy? I've never leased cars, as I've never felt I needed a new car every 2-3 years. Happy to drive them far longer. But considering lease here...as I said earlier, seems to make sense to "date" the technology (including potential degradation in battery) rather than "marry" it. What did you decide, and why?

How is highway noise? CR suggests it's loud (and not just because the engine is quiet). Do you miss leather seats in a car this expensive? Is CarPlay coming? Rarely anyone in my back seats (other than the dog)...are they comfortable enough? What else has left you wanting? Thanks.

I bought. Leasing seemed like the more expensive option. And I had only a few minor issues in seven years of driving my Roadster. I figured I'd probably keep it for 8 to 10 years (my guess at the time for true FSD, less optimistic now) and then trade up. That's about how long I usually keep cars.

The car is quieter than my Roadster was. This is not saying much. The big wide tires made that a noisy car. Otherwise I have nothing to compare it to. I'm not bothered by the noise.

My Model 3 has fake leather and, honestly, I cannot tell the difference except that for ethical reasons I would not want to have real leather. The fake leather is, to my senses, excellent. Generally, I prefer cloth. I'd have gotten cloth if I'd had a choice, but I'd have had to wait at least half a year to get cloth. I think cloth vs. leather is a personal preference. Only you can answer that for yourself.

The back seats are extremely comfortable. Someone coming from a Lincoln Town Car might disagree. I had the Roadster (very uncomfortable seats) and before that the Xebra (horribly uncomfortable seats) and the Prius (tolerable seats) and the Civic (don't even remember the seats). The Model 3 has far and away the most comfortable seats, front and back, of any car I've owned.

I honestly feel that the Model 3 is the best car you can buy, unless you need to haul lumber or tow a boat. JMO.
 
Why did you decide to lease or buy? I've never leased cars, as I've never felt I needed a new car every 2-3 years. Happy to drive them far longer. But considering lease here...as I said earlier, seems to make sense to "date" the technology (including potential degradation in battery) rather than "marry" it. What did you decide, and why?
I bought. I expect to keep the car for around 5-6 years. Unless there is some major breakthrough that nobody saw coming, I don't expect battery technology to improve that much in that time frame (although the cost will likely continue to drop).
How is highway noise? CR suggests it's loud (and not just because the engine is quiet).
It's worse than my previous car (a BMW), and IMO not really appropriate for a $60k car. But it's not terrible.
Do you miss leather seats in a car this expensive?
No. The seats are good.
Is CarPlay coming?
I wish, but it's unlikely.
What else has left you wanting?
Build quality isn't the best (paint issues, rattles developing over time, and in my case a few bolts were missing), and I wish it had a display behind the steering wheel. Tesla's service is pretty terrible. But overall it's a great car that is really fun to drive.
 
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Additionally, charging to 100% is actually technically damaging in and of itself, but indeed getting it below 100% as fast as possible will prevent further degradation.
Occasional 100% charging is not the problem. Leaving it at 100% for an extended period before driving is damaging. Charging 100% immediately before a long trip is fine. Use the scheduled charging/preconditioning feature to make this easy! I have done this many times in 22,000 miles on my 3 and have no significant depreciation. If you need the range, use it!
 
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Keep in mind that very cold weather can make trickle charging at 120v pretty ineffective because it will use most of the energy to heat the battery. Make sure you plug it in as soon as you get there so the battery is already warm. You could check if your family would be willing to install a higher power circuit, possibly offer to pay for it?

Check route planners and plugshare to see if there are free public chargers near your destination. It is very likely that there are.

I never think leasing is a good idea, but I tend to keep cars for longer. I suspect the battery will last ten years based on your described usage. Tech always gets out of date fast. Hopefully the update mechanism makes that less of an issue in the Tesla.
 
One thing you need to do: go to Supercharger | Tesla and see if you have a supercharger conveniently located along your 240mi route, if yes then you are good to go.

If not then you need to see how much more charge can you get at your destination, a 120V trickle charge would do fine if you stay for several days. Find out if they have an electric drier by the garage, or a welders outlet. If yes you can get a $35 adapter and fully charge overnight.
 
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Currently in a '17 M240i with manual transmission, 25k miles. I love the car, but I realize I'm an ideal candidate for a 3. [...]
Other than the 95% of my driving that's in town, almost all of the rest is a 240 mile round trip to visit family. Am I right that this will be just outside the "usable" range for the long range 3, meaning I'll have to make provisions to charge it somewhere along the trip?

Depending on the time of the year, and the model you buy, you may, or may not be able to make the 240 mile trip without midway charging.
Tesla has discontinued selling a RWD LR Model 3, but if you can still find one, it will give you 325 miles of range (LR AWD is 322 miles) under ideal circumstances. Figure -30-35% of that on a highway with temps below 40F, or ~210-225 miles. Add hills or BMW-grade highway cruising speeds, and your range will drop even further.

Long story short - in the winter, you will need to charge mid-trip.

Sounds like 240 mile round trip might be a bit much on LR 3, particularly when variables like temperature come into play. Would 10-12 hours of trickle charge at my destination (this would add 20-40 miles of range, yes?) be enough to make this "work"?

Not year-around.
Not when ambient temps below 40-50F (aka winter) at highway speeds.
Not without a stop to charge along the way. Some treasure that prospect, I find it undesirably long and unattractive. YMMV.

FYI - 120V trickle charge is ineffective in the winter as well. You really need to plan out access to L2 (240V) or L3 (DC) chargers for longer trips. That's doable, but requires more planning.

Also, what's known about expected life of the batteries? My thinking on leasing vs. buying was that it makes sense to date the technology, not marry it, presuming battery performance will deteriorate over time (and battery technology will improve over time).

Battery range degrades over time.
But degradation rate varies from one car to another, and is further impacted by how you charge/discharge the batteries. Expect 10-15% range loss over 50-100K miles.

w.r.t. leasing, Tesla's lease rates and residuals are just flat-out terrible. So are the financing rates (shop for financing on your own).
I can't think of any reason to recommend a lease, unless you can write-off lease payments as a business expense.
Run the #s!


Curious what sort of operating costs (non power) you're seeing in the early years of lease/ownership. I'm presuming very low...which is where I am now in the BMW...but I anticipate maintenance will begin creeping up as I put more miles on the car.

If you are a DIY-kinda guy (6spd and all that), the delta in maintenance in negligible.
Yes, you save a few bucks on oil filter and filter once a year (or every 2 years, depending on your CBS intervals), but that costs peanuts.

Real savings come in the cost of energy that propels the EV vs. ICE cars.
There, the cost delta is about 1:4 per mile between EV:ICE.

Cost penalty comes from higher insurance costs on Teslas (for many reasons). Expect ~25-50% premium over what you are paying to insure M240i.

These operating savings would help offset the "loss" of not owning what would then be a five year old M240i when the lease on the Tesla ends (I have historically driven cars for far longer than three years).

Why not keep the M240i for longer road trips, and track days?
You are at the nearly flat slope of the depreciation on your bimmer. Why rush to get rid of it?

2nd "pleasure" car gets an insurance discount!


Why did you decide to lease or buy? [...] considering lease here...as I said earlier, seems to make sense to "date" the technology (including potential degradation in battery) rather than "marry" it. What did you decide, and why?

Run the #s - Tesla's lease terms are atrocious (nearly same monthly payment as buying).

How is highway noise? CR suggests it's loud (and not just because the engine is quiet).

Wind-noise is definitely louder than in a bimmer.
But stereo is awesome, and you can drawn out wind-noise with music.

Do you miss leather seats in a car this expensive?

Hell YES!
Not just the breathable leather surfaces, but how supportive BMW M-seats are, in general.
This really shows up on longer drives.

Is CarPlay coming? Rarely anyone in my back seats (other than the dog)...are they comfortable enough?

No/Good enough, though rear leg rooms is not excessive.


Finally, the nearest dealer/service is about an hour from where I live. Others without local dealers have any regrets about buying "out of town"? Guessing service needs (not sure how the remote service works...what might I need in the initial three years of ownership that would require a trip to the dealer, versus what can be done by remote service) are minimal for first few years.

Tesla service is highly inconsistent, and usually sucks.
What gets, or doesn't get, covered by warranty is whimsical, and varies from one Service Center (SC) to another. There is no way to appeal, as the SC's are owned by the automaker itself.
I've been to my nearby SC least 5 times since buying the car 9 months ago, and there are still things that they haven't been able to order for replacement under warranty.

No independent mechanic will touch a Tesla for anything other than basic tire/suspension work. So if anything goes wrong, you will get seriously stuck.
Yet another reason to keep the M240i !

a
 
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Range hit at/below 40F is not as bad as you suggest

Tesla Range Plotted Relative To Speed & Temperature (Graphs) | CleanTechnica

That's data from 200k + miles on less efficient Model S and X pre-raven cars, showing about a 22% range hit below 32F versus at temps above 68F.

322 rated on a LR AWD, knock 22% off, you're at 251.16 miles of range.


Note- his trip is 240 miles round trip so he's probably fine, even in winter, if he can plug into 120V for 10-12 hours while at his destination... and easily fine in warmer weather.

But a 5-10 minute stop at any supercharger (on a 240 mile trip you'll likely wanna stop for a few minutes to pee if nothing else) it'd be a total non-issue regardless of weather.


Your 10-15% range loss in 50-100k miles also appears a little inflated as well compared to real-world results from lots of Model S (again with older battery tech compared to the 3)
 
Range hit at/below 40F is not as bad as you suggest

Tesla Range Plotted Relative To Speed & Temperature (Graphs) | CleanTechnica

That's data from 200k + miles on less efficient Model S and X pre-raven cars, showing about a 22% range hit below 32F versus at temps above 68F.

322 rated on a LR AWD, knock 22% off, you're at 251.16 miles of range.

It's not just the temps that inflict the range hit, but the type of driving you do as well.
The worst things you can do for your range is to drive at highway speeds (VA highway speeds are north of 70 mph, BTW), crest mountains, and drive in freezing temps.

The impacts are gradual - the faster you go, and the colder the ambient temps, the bigger the range reduction that you get. Variable terrain and winter heating needs for the passengers add range handicaps on top. As do rain and wind.

In my personal experience of 5+ winters of EV driving in NY/NJ area, you will see hits of > 40% to your range once you hit the highway speeds at < 20F.

Instead of charging my TM3 once a week normally, I have to charge it every other day in the winter for that very reason!


Note- his trip is 240 miles round trip so he's probably fine, even in winter, if he can plug into 120V for 10-12 hours while at his destination... and easily fine in warmer weather.

Probably fine is flat WRONG.
120V charging is ineffective in the winter if your car is parked outside overnight in near freezing temps, as much of the energy is consumed to just heat the battery pack.

You just can't extrapolate your Southern or Cali EV driving experiences to those who live with EV further North.
Granted, VA is not quite NY or Canada, but it does get freezing nights way more frequently than NC.
 
It's not just the temps that inflict the range hit, but the type of driving you do as well.
The worst things you can do for your range is to drive at highway speeds (VA highway speeds are north of 70 mph, BTW), crest mountains, and drive in freezing temps.

And the data I cited is from over 200,000 real world miles including plenty of highway speed driving.


In my personal experience of 5+ winters of EV driving in NY/NJ area, you will see hits of > 40% to your range once you hit the highway speeds at < 20F.

Glad you changed your story- since it was 40% hits at <40F last time :)

Instead of charging my TM3 once a week normally, I have to charge it every other day in the winter for that very reason!

You know the owners manual says the best thing for battery health is to charge every day, right? In fact it recommends always plugging it in whenever possible.



Probably fine is flat WRONG.

Well, no, it's not...because math.



120V charging is ineffective in the winter if your car is parked outside overnight

Also wrong.

For one- can you cite where the OP said it'd be outside when charging overnight? Or are you just making assumptions now?

For another there's tons of threads on the fact plugging in even when it's significantly colder than VA is likely to ever get, you still can gain a few miles per hour at 120v charging even if it's not as fast as when it's warm...(and you won't lose any overnight either) so it's absolutely effective.

examples-
120V charge rates at different temperatures | Tesla

and

Extreme cold - charging - conundrum ???? | Tesla


You just can't extrapolate your Southern or Cali EV driving experiences to those who live with EV further North.

I'm citing folks in places it gets colder than where you live- almost univerally agreeing plugging into 120 is useful and adds measurable range even in below 0 temps (which you don't run into in VA much at all).


Granted, VA is not quite NY or Canada, but it does get freezing nights way more frequently than NC.


More assumptions on your part.

VA and NC are both large states. There's plenty of places in both that rarely see such temps- and plenty in both that see them for months at a time (especially overnight).

But again I'm citing folks with much harsher winters contradicting your own claims.
 
Most people report the operating costs to consist of:
  • Electricity (which mile for mile is much lower than petrofuels)
  • Windscreen washer fluid
  • Tire rotations
  • Tires
  • Paint protection film
  • Window tinting
  • Minor aesthetic accessories (e. g. a vinyl wrap for the center console)

Don’t forget cabin air filters. I have had to do 3 changes so far. $30 for a pair (there are 2 filters)
 
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My first car was an old CJ-5 Jeep with a leaky metal cab in North Dakota. I dressed very warm to go out. There's no reason someone pushing the range limits would need to crank up the heat. Wear a jacket and use a little heat to take the edge off the chill. And if you get the fancy version, there's heated seats.
 
Other than the 95% of my driving that's in town, almost all of the rest is a 240 mile round trip to visit family. Am I right that this will be just outside the "usable" range for the long range 3, meaning I'll have to make provisions to charge it somewhere along the trip? What's anticipated in terms of range improvement in these cars over the next several years? What comes to those who wait??

I’m new to this myself, but my driving habits seem pretty similar to yours (and I’m also in the VA area). I do nearly all my driving local to DC/NOVA, and then do maybe two long distance road trips of about 800 miles round trip to visit family. I bought a SR+, but that road trip gave me serious second thoughts. Ultimately, I played around quite a bit with A Better Route Planner, and that put my mind at ease, and spared my wallet to the tune of $9k.

Two things ultimately swayed me to stick with the SR+: A Better Route Planner, and the prevalence of superchargers.

Per ABRP, even in freezing conditions, charging the SR+ only adds about 1:10 to my drive (assuming I start at 95%). I’ve yet to test that claim, but bear in mind, this is for a 450 mile drive one way—nearly double your entire trip. I gamed out a winter drive to Charlottesville, which is about 230 miles round trip, and ABRP says that would require only one relatively brief stop at a Supercharger. Fortunately, there are quite a few supercharger options along the route, and more are being built, so I’m sticking with the SR+.

Ultimately, it’s not so much a question of, “Can the car make this drive?” Both the SR+ and LR can do the distance as long as there is charging available at some point on the route. The real question is, how much do you value not needing to stop? Obviously everyone is going to answer that differently; for me, saving time on a roadtrip once a year just isn’t worth the extra money.
 
Don’t over think this.

You will be fine in either a SR+ or LR, in winter or summer. The LR will be slightly nicer from a range perspective, and relative to the performance of your M240.

Supercharging is amazing. That is what make 90% of your range concerns irrelevant. A 10 minute break will add 100 miles to your range.

It’s just a different set of rules to learn. None are a deal breaker.
 
How is the fit of your car holding up after x months of regular driving? The BMWs are great...my prior one showed some of its 13 years (when I finally sold it), but the interior was still in amazing shape. Do you keep a cloth in the car to get fingerprints off that shiny stuff covering the center console??
 
How is the fit of your car holding up after x months of regular driving? The BMWs are great...my prior one showed some of its 13 years (when I finally sold it), but the interior was still in amazing shape.

After 10 months and 9K miles of ownership, my TM3P's interior is mostly intact.
Seat adjustment buttons have fallen off, repeatedly. One was replaced under warranty, the other one the Service Center hasn't been able to restock for 6+ months, so my passengers are reclining by pressing on an exposed little white stick (not pretty, but works).
Rattles and squeaks have developed around the back seat and under-dash areas, but nothing tragic. If seats were leather, cleaning and moisturizing them would fix the squeaks. Since they are some kind of plastic-fantastic, I'm not sure if anything can be done.

The longest I ever owned a bimmer, was 19 years when I sold it. It had 254K miles on the odometer (E30 325i 5spd), and had the perfectly working original engine, tranny, and diff, and saw plenty of track time. The first interior pieces to require repair were the cloth seat covers that got replaced at ~16 year mark.

I don't know if the same endurance can be reasonably expected from the modern cars.

Do you keep a cloth in the car to get fingerprints off that shiny stuff covering the center console??

Neah, it's just a car.
I disliked the shiny plastic and wood-grain surfaces, so I covered them with faux carbon-fiber vinyl wraps.
My F80 has real CF interior, and the wraps are a cheap distant cousin to the real thing, but still better than what comes out of the factory.

YMMV