A (sarcastic) thanks to autopilot

[ewoodrick]

The individuals sitting in the back seat with a bag of spuds in the driver’s seat, attaching weights to their steering wheel or watching movies whilst driving are (were on one case) a special kind of stupid

Original autopilot should be made available after signing a hefty waiver

The nags are intrusive and ridiculous. Those in this thread who seem to love them, deserve to have them. But those who can't root their cars should have an Off switch for nags if they so choose.

Of course Tesla is in a delicate position now, trying to get full self-driving approved. So this is why the incessant, infuriating nags. It is so bad I was forced to learn how to root my car myself, and stop this.

I seriously hope that if someone is able to root their car and attempt to turn the nags off, that their car is permanently disabled!!!

It's folks like this, those who are better than everyone else, that end up falling asleep at the wheel, watching movies and running into fire trucks that generally make these things needed in the first place.

Driving it not a right, it is a privilege. Self-driving won't be a right either. You will need to follow the rules to be able to do so.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I'm in complete agreement even though I abhor your obsession with using AP1 to the degree you do. To pull off to the shoulder is ridiculous. That's for an emergency situation. Not being able to drive to the next rest stop manually is a little ridiculous.

Anyways.

The penalty box for over speed is so stupid I assumed it was a bug. It just goes to show that the car and how it's designed to operate is from a person in Silicon Valley, and not a place where speed limits are 85mph which makes 90mph not too insane.

The nags I never had an issue with in the Model S, but I do with the Model 3. In the Model 3 there is NO SAFE WAY to hold the steering wheel to avoid the nags. So the nags have absolutely no purpose. It doesn't matter if I hold the steering wheel or not. I'd be better off just thumbing the volume control. Obviously that wouldn't make me a safer driver.

I can't speak to anyone else, but for me the nags is a big part of why I normally just use TACC only.

Now you might hate that AP1 isn't getting any better, but at least it doesn't have the false braking of AP2. Or the unexplainable cancelation of auto lane changes 10-25% of the time.

 

[Electroman]

not a place where speed limits are 85mph which makes 90mph not too insane.

I think you are missing the point that 90 mph is insane for AP. You are driving AP crazy by driving at that speed irrespective of what the speed limit is in that road.

If you make AP angry, it will take revenge on you by forcing you to put in Park before you can use it again.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I think you are missing the point that 90 mph is insane for AP. You are driving AP crazy by driving at that speed irrespective of what the speed limit is in that road.

If you make AP angry, it will take revenge on you by forcing you to put in Park before you can use it again.

Haha, I guess if you choose to look at it that way.

Ultimately though it comes down to Tesla not really have a good way to manage a temporary take over event that exceeds the limits of AP.

Normally you can hit the accelerator, and then let go where it returns to the set point. But, when you exceed its limits it has to turn off.

So how should Tesla handle this turn off event?

Temporarily? Where they allow the user to re-engage it once it's within the limits. If they do it this way then it's going to increase the occurrence of these events. These events can be dangerous because a driver might not realize what mode the car is in.

Until putting in park? This discourages the user from exceeding the limits, but might make customers mad in markets with high speed limits. It could also cause customers to do dangerous things like the OP did. Even I didn't think anyone would get that desperate.

I tend to be an advocate of putting the responsibility on the driver. So I'm pretty much always going to vote for the option that requires the driver themselves to be responsible. The only exception is when it comes to driver training/education, and then I'm usually highly in favor of educating them more. Like having a hard core disclaimer for removing restrictions.

 

[gilscales]

By this logic we should prohibit sales of chainsaws, hammers and lots of other good tools; if idiots can abuse them is reason enough.

Reminds me of someone I used to know years ago who earned the nickname "Chainsaw" for how he mishandled one once and cut into his leg!

 

[MaryAnning3]

Agreed, except for the jail part. I don't expect AP to work at that speed, nor was I asking it to. It happened to be on, I had to take over, and the taking over involved barely hitting 90mph. Pop up take over immediately and turn off AP. I understand jail for ignoring warnings but immediately putting you in jail for this is annoying.

Of course if the car could actually detect that my attention was on the road and /or accurately detect my hands on the wheel without torque, then it would know I was in control.

Basically jail in this case is a poor solution to the fact that the car has no idea on your level of awareness.

When you take over you want to smoothly click AP off. That move should be quick and reflexive. It is part of your "advanced AP" training.

 

[Saghost]

Agreed, except for the jail part. I don't expect AP to work at that speed, nor was I asking it to.

Except that you forced AP to try to work at that speed, by overriding the car's speed control while not controlling the steering. The car refused to let you make it drive in an environment where it can't safely.

It happened to be on, I had to take over, and the taking over involved barely hitting 90mph. Pop up take over immediately and turn off AP. I understand jail for ignoring warnings but immediately putting you in jail for this is annoying.

AP Jail didn't always exist. Tesla implemented it, likely at the request of the NHTSA *because* of the risks involved when folks doing what you did, to make sure that it was annoying enough that people wouldn't do it again.

What Tesla wanted was what they released in version 7, where it prompted only when the car wasn't sure where to go. Folks abusing the system and government regulators responding to them forced Tesla to add the rest of the prompts and AP Jail.

Of course if the car could actually detect that my attention was on the road and /or accurately detect my hands on the wheel without torque, then it would know I was in control.

Basically jail in this case is a poor solution to the fact that the car has no idea on your level of awareness.

No, you weren't in control. AP was in control, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. You may have had your hand on the wheel and your eyes on the road, but you deliberately left the car in control while pushing it into a regime it can't safely control.

 

[kirkbauer]

When you take over you want to smoothly click AP off. That move should be quick and reflexive. It is part of your "advanced AP" training.

Ideally, sure, I agree. However, in MOST situations, when taking over for AP, it involves hitting the brakes and/or steering aggressively, both of which automatically disengage autopilot. I know from my personal experience in training for emergency situations that it is best to keep the procedure very simple. Adding a mental step of "oh, before I can avoid this accident I'd better manually disable autopilot" is not going to make things safer for the vast majority of people. Especially if it is only required for a small subset of situations. At the very least it will require extensive practice and training that is hard to get outside of some sort of simulator environment.

No, you weren't in control. AP was in control, or we wouldn't be having this conversation. You may have had your hand on the wheel and your eyes on the road, but you deliberately left the car in control while pushing it into a regime it can't safely control.

I disagree with this statement. I was in fact in complete control. It just so happens that I had no need, in this situation, to change the steering wheel position from what AP had it at. I had both hands on the wheel, both eyes on the road, my foot on the accelerator, and I was handling the situation. I was in control. AP could do nothing at that point. AP won't brake (because my foot was on the accelerator). If AP had tried to make a maneuver it would have found resistance from my hands and it would have disengaged itself.

I did not deliberately leave the car in control. In the emergency situation, I did not deliberately turn off AP either. If this was some sort of student driver situation and we had a car with two sets of control, and AP was the student driver, the student driver would have had no doubt that I was taking over control of the vehicle. But in this case, AP was not aware enough of what was going on inside of the vehicle to know I had taken over. AP was not aware enough of what was going on outside the vehicle to know that I needed to take over.

Do you specifically turn off autopilot using the stalk every time you need to take over?

 

[SpudLime]

What you are forgetting is training. Repeating something over a thousand times will make it muscle memory.

I routinely disengage with the stalk in non emergency situations. The way I hold the steering wheel it is nothing more than a flick of the fingers. It is more natural now to do that than turn the wheel or hit the brake.

Point being is that there are multiple ways to quickly deal with the situation.

 

[Saghost]

I did not deliberately leave the car in control. In the emergency situation, I did not deliberately turn off AP either. If this was some sort of student driver situation and we had a car with two sets of control, and AP was the student driver, the student driver would have had no doubt that I was taking over control of the vehicle. But in this case, AP was not aware enough of what was going on inside of the vehicle to know I had taken over. AP was not aware enough of what was going on outside the vehicle to know that I needed to take over.

Do you specifically turn off autopilot using the stalk every time you need to take over?

How would this putative student driver know you had taken control of the car, when you continued to allow them to steer the car unless they made a mistake?

By not turning AP off, you are by definition leaving it in control. I believe you that you had your hands on the wheel and were closely monitoring what it did and ready to intervene. That's still you supervising while it drives as you force it outside of design parameters.

With both hands on the wheel, it's a trivial fraction of a second thing to push the cruise lever away from you and drop AP - something that could easily be done even as you're accelerating.

I don't know the exact situation you were in, but I am having a lot of trouble picturing a spilt second emergency coming up with no advance warning while driving the freeway at 85 that can be solved by accelerating to 90 or just past without steering from the lane.

 

[kirkbauer]

I don't know the exact situation you were in, but I am having a lot of trouble picturing a spilt second emergency coming up with no advance warning while driving the freeway at 85 that can be solved by accelerating to 90 or just past without steering from the lane.

I'm not sure how, but even though I was a half a car length in front of and to the left of another car, they changed lanes into me. Obviously going faster was better than going slower. I'm fortunate that I saw it coming in time. The good news is I also had the shoulder as a backup option, but personally I prefer to adjust my speed in the lane rather than go into the shoulder.

 

[Electroman]

Do you specifically turn off autopilot using the stalk every time you need to take over?

All the time except in emergency situations which is perhaps only two times so far. In all situations I flick the stalk and take control.

I want to take the exit, flick the stalk. Want to switch lanes in bumper to bumper or slow packed traffic? flick the stalk See construction cones ahead? flick the stalk. Want to speed 5 miles over the limit to pass someone quickly on a back road? flick the stalk. It is easy, it is muscle memory.

 

[kirkbauer]

All the time except in emergency situations which is perhaps only two times so far. In all situations I flick the stalk and take control.

I want to take the exit, flick the stalk. Want to switch lanes in bumper to bumper or slow packed traffic? flick the stalk See construction cones ahead? flick the stalk. Want to speed 5 miles over the limit to pass someone quickly on a back road? flick the stalk. It is easy, it is muscle memory.

Makes sense. Typically I just use the brake or use the steering wheel. I don't normally use the stalk. Mostly I will use it if I see traffic stopping way ahead and I want to start gradually slowing down.

But of course in this case it was indeed an emergency situation.

 

[Saghost]

I'm not sure how, but even though I was a half a car length in front of and to the left of another car, they changed lanes into me. Obviously going faster was better than going slower. I'm fortunate that I saw it coming in time. The good news is I also had the shoulder as a backup option, but personally I prefer to adjust my speed in the lane rather than go into the shoulder.

Obviously I wasn't there, and I've got a lot more time to think about now than you had in the moment.

Having said that, I'm pretty sure that in the described situation I would choose to break AP steering towards the shoulder (but stay in the lane) at the same time I floored it.