About to pull the trigger on a Prius V

[cwerdna]

I can't wait to sell our Prius V. Yes, we get 47 mpg and can carry lots of stuff ...but I would have never bought it if I first watched the crash tests.

The small overlap test might've been not conducted on the Prius v wagon when you bought.

IIHS seems to have the habit of moving the goal posts and then liking to broadcast that Toyota didn't do well on these new goals: IIHS rating on 'small overlap front' test crash | Page 3 | PriusChat.

All vehicles are optimized for known crash tests for their market (e.g. NHTSA full frontal, IIHS moderate overlap/offset, Euro NCAP, etc.). When you introduce a new test that few or none are optimized for that's much harder on a vehicle since the force is over a smaller area, of course most not optimized for this unknown at the time of design finalization won't do well.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

And as has been mentioned there’s also the VW Jetta SportWagon TDI (as in Diesel). VW claims 30 city/42 hwy mpg. It appears though that VW US still sells the old and IMO rather unfortunate looking model. In Europe they now sell the new one that (again IMO) looks a lot better (in Europe it’s called the Golf Estate)…


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Another thing to consider if you’re still thinking about converting a Prius V into a plug-in, is the extra weight of the batteries. As I understand it, that weight will put an additional load on the crash structure in the event of a frontal collision for example. For an illustration of how that might play out, you can watch the frontal offset collision videos of the Plug-in Version of the Volvo V60 as compared to the regular Volvo V60 on the European car crash safety site – the Euro NCAP. On the Plug-in Version you can see the A-pillar flex some, and get a small deformation once settled. That doesn’t happen on the regular ICE-version. So it seems to me that Volvo actually compromised some on crash safety on the plug-in version of the V60…


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Some more about Aero wheels. You’ll have to ‘convert’ the info for it to be applicable to the ‘non-Model S’ vehicle you’re considering though, since the following is about the Aero wheels Tesla are offering…

Extending EPA range by 3% could easily extend real highway range by more. EPA range is city/highway combined. City range is meaningless. Real highway range is mostly about aerodynamics. Throwing out the city start/stop component could bump the boost from the aero wheels higher than 3%, lets say 4% or 5%. But that's still mostly at 55mph. At 80mph the aerodynamic component is much more important - at 80mph the difference might be 6% or 7%
Now you have a difference that matters. Only testing will tell. Testing at 80mph - the speed people really want to drive.

The purpose of the aerodynamic wheels isn't to save money - it is to save time. Better efficiency/more range means fewer stops, less time stopped on a long trip. /...

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Just as a comparison – here’s a couple of cars that aren’t available in the US, but on sale in Europe:


The RWD BMW 318d SE Touring[SUP][1][/SUP] (diesel) gets 62.8 mpg[SUB]Imp.[/SUB] combined on the European test cycle.

The new FWD version of the Jetta SportsWagon/Golf Estate 1.6 TDI 110 PS BlueMotion (diesel) gets 85,6 mpg[SUB]Imp.[/SUB] combined on the European test cycle.

The FWD Volvo V60[SUP][2] [/SUP]D2 (diesel) gets 68,9 mpg[SUB]Imp.[/SUB] combined on the European test cycle with a manual tranny. And 67,2 mpg[SUB]Imp.[/SUB] with an automatic.


Edit: Clarified that these mpg-figures are for imperial gallons (mpg[SUB]Imp.[/SUB])




1. Touring is BMW UK speak for Wagon.
2. ...and V is Volvo speak for Wagon.

 

[gnelson]

A Chevrolet Volt will drive and accelerate much better. The cost of driving will be less with a Volt unless your round trip commute is > 80 mi. It is also much better looking.

 

[spatterso911]

If you're just going to drive it to work and back, I'd recommend the C-Max Energi. My wife has one, loves it and it's getting about 53 or so mpg. She got about 730 miles on her first tank, but doesn't practice good hybrid driving habits most of the time, drives it like she stole it and after testing the Prius, Prius V, Lexus CT200 and C-Max back to back, it is markedly more fun to drive. I still can't get over the brake pedal regen, but it's probably because I've only driven it a few times.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

A Chevrolet Volt will drive and accelerate much better. The cost of driving will be less with a Volt unless your round trip commute is > 80 mi. It is also much better looking.

I specifically ignored it because he said he was looking for a part-time family hauler for long trips and the Volt isn't one of those.

PS Beauty meet beholder. My wife thinks the Volt is gorgeous and I think it's meh. Not that I'd let the look of a car influence my purchase anyway (will buy efficient gargoyle), but I think it might be a cultural thing, since I'm not American and don't like the boxy look that Americans seem to love.

 

[Chris TX]

So the pendulum has shifted to the Volt and the Fusion (non-Energi)

I really want to like the Prius V, but safety is a concern. I've always been a fan of Ford, but the Volt is plug-in. Going to check both of them out today.
This is hard since I have the "everything-non-Tesla-sucks" disease

 

[tenstringer009]

I don't think it was mentioned earlier, but since the VW SportWagen TDI has been mentioned a few times, I figured I'd throw the hat in the ring for the BMW 328d xDrive Wagon. Per the EPA, it gets 31/43 versus the Jetta's 29/39, and the BMW even has AWD. It's significantly more expensive at around $43k base MSRP, but I personally would check it out. If you could live without the wagon and AWD aspects, the sedan could be had at $39,500 MSRP and that'll get you 32/45.

 

[omgwtfbyobbq]

So the pendulum has shifted to the Volt and the Fusion (non-Energi)

I really want to like the Prius V, but safety is a concern. I've always been a fan of Ford, but the Volt is plug-in. Going to check both of them out today.
This is hard since I have the "everything-non-Tesla-sucks" disease

The Volt hasn't been tested on the small-overlap test, so saying it's safer is highly speculative.

Vehicle details


The Fusion is acceptable on the small-offset...

Vehicle details


But then again, so is the Prius (Not the V though, at least not yet). Of the two, I'd take a Prius b/c of reliability/FE/utility even though it's slower, but I can see how someone would take the Fusion for looks/performance.

 

[cwerdna]

Just as a comparison – here’s a couple of cars that aren’t available in the US, but on sale in Europe:

The RWD BMW 318d SE Touring[SUP][1][/SUP] (diesel) gets 62.8 mpg combined on the European test cycle.

The new FWD version of the Jetta SportsWagon/Golf Estate 1.6 TDI 110 PS BlueMotion (diesel) gets 85,6 mpg combined on the European test cycle.

The FWD Volvo V60[SUP][2] [/SUP]D2 (diesel) gets 68,9 mpg combined on the European test cycle with a manual tranny. And 67,2 mpg with an automatic.

FWIW, the Prius v wagon in Europe (sold as the Prius Plus (Toyota Prius+ | 7-Seater Hybrid Car | Toyota UK) and available as a 7-seater, not available in the US) get pretty inflated numbers on the European cycle, esp. when using Imperial gallons.

Per Select a search : Directgov - Car fuel data, CO2 and vehicle tax tools
(you may have to enter the URL twice due to some what I'm guessing is referrer detection logic on the server side) gets 68.9 mpg (in miles per Imperial gallon) combined on their test.

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C-Max Energi

Unfortunately, it has a horrific Consumer Reports reliability rating.

2013 Car Reliability Survey | Car Brands Rise and Fall - Consumer Reports News

The worst score goes to the Ford C-Max Energi plug-in hybrid, with the regular C-Max Hybrid not faring much better. To be clear, this should not cast a negative light on other electric cars or hybrids. In fact, the Toyota Prius, Lexus ES 300h, Toyota Prius C, and Honda CR-Z hybrids, along with the pure-electric Nissan Leaf, were among the top models in reliability. This is more of a Ford issue.

I have an online subscription. For the C-Max Energi they say:

Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 226% below average

.

For the hybrid version:

Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 143% below average

.

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I don't think it was mentioned earlier, but since the VW SportWagen TDI has been mentioned a few times, I figured I'd throw the hat in the ring for the BMW 328d xDrive Wagon. Per the EPA, it gets 31/43 versus the Jetta's 29/39, and the BMW even has AWD. It's significantly more expensive at around $43k base MSRP, but I personally would check it out. If you could live without the wagon and AWD aspects, the sedan could be had at $39,500 MSRP and that'll get you 32/45.

The above two have less interior room than the Prius v and are thus classified as "small station wagons" vs. "midsize station wagon". See specs tab of Compare Side-by-Side.

Also, diesel fuel is more expensive than regular unleaded:
http://www.fuelgaugereport.com
Why has diesel fuel been more expensive than gasoline? - FAQ - U.S. Energy Information Administration (EIA)

And VW and BMW reliability are almost always inferior to most Toyotas.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Just as a comparison – here’s a couple of cars that aren’t available in the US, but on sale in Europe:

The RWD BMW 318d SE Touring[SUP][1][/SUP] (diesel) gets 62.8 mpg combined on the European test cycle.

The new FWD version of the Jetta SportsWagon/Golf Estate 1.6 TDI 110 PS BlueMotion (diesel) gets 85,6 mpg combined on the European test cycle.

The FWD Volvo V60[SUP][2][/SUP] D2 (diesel) gets 68,9 mpg combined on the European test cycle with a manual tranny. And 67,2 mpg with an automatic.

FWIW, the Prius v wagon in Europe (sold as the Prius Plus (Toyota Prius+ | 7-Seater Hybrid Car | Toyota UK) and available as a 7-seater, not available in the US) get pretty inflated numbers on the European cycle, esp. when using Imperial gallons.

Per Select a search : Directgov - Car fuel data, CO2 and vehicle tax tools
(you may have to enter the URL twice due to some what I'm guessing is referrer detection logic on the server side) gets 68.9 mpg (in miles per Imperial gallon) combined on their test.
View attachment 44187

/...

Yeah. Thanks for the reminder. I should have clarified that, and I have updated that post.

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Cool. 68.9 miles per Imperial gallon is ~57.37 miles per US gallon.

The Prius v wagon is rated at 42 miles per US gallon combined (Compare Side-by-Side)... which illustrates the European cycles are rather inflated.

This just more of an FYI in the event others hear people talking about surprisingly high FE numbers for cars in Europe, which I see thrown around a lot (in other forums, comment areas, poorly researched articles and random convseration). Yep, part of it is most are diesel (which is more efficient than a similarly powered gasolined ICEV), are of far less hp than what's sold in the US, combined w/the inflated European + Imperial vs. US gallon confusion.

From Comparing EPA Figures

One last fuel-economy tidbit: Don’t even think of comparing EPA figures with stand*ardized fuel-economy tests from other countries because the test cycles are very different. For example, the European highway rating, called “extra urban,” is higher than the EPA’s by about 30 percent, so a rating on that cycle of, say, 60 mpg, would be closer to 40 in this country. The mainstream press, not realizing the difference, often complains that automakers refuse to bring efficient models here when, in fact, they may not be all that efficient when measured by U.S. standards.

 

[mnx]

I second the vote for diesel BMW's. Awesome machines for highway driving or long trips. You could probably get a used BMW 335d for a decent price. And it has almost as much torque as a P85.

 

[dj905]

So the pendulum has shifted to the Volt and the Fusion (non-Energi)

I really want to like the Prius V, but safety is a concern. I've always been a fan of Ford, but the Volt is plug-in. Going to check both of them out today.
This is hard since I have the "everything-non-Tesla-sucks" disease

Chris,
We are very happy with the Volt. It is more efficient than the Prius for round trips of less than 150 miles, which is most of our usage for this car. The interior storage and backseat space is less than the Prius, but the front seats are comfortable.

If most of the usage is for local travel and you can always charge at home, I recommend the Volt.

Of course, the Tesla wins in performance and space!

David

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

Yeah. Thanks for the reminder. I should have clarified that, and I have updated that post.

A rough conversion from NEDC to EPA for conventional cars is to take 83% of the value, but:
- remember to convert any references to Imperial gallons to US gallons as well. (Multiply by 5/6).
- plug-ins are even worse
- take a careful look at the spec of the car to determine whether it would be sold in that form in the USA; US versions of European cars often have larger engines and different (i.e. shorter) gearing, plus for conventional cars you'll see usually see European reviews with the numbers for stick, and notably less impressive numbers for automatics; forget the small diesels, not happening here; if it's a diesel wagon with a stick, it's almost certainly not coming to the USA.

 

[Zaxxon]

We have a 2013 V and have been happy with it. The new crash test result was disturbing to us when we saw it (after purchase), but it's true that many cars have unsatisfactory results on that test since it is new. We also have a 2007 'regular' Prius, and I can confirm that the V is quite a bit larger inside. The hatch is bigger, seating is 2+" wider, and the ceiling is higher. If cargo space is a concern, the Volt and Prius V are in entirely different categories.

That said, the Volt is a plug-in, and that means something to Tesla enthusiasts.

 

[andrewket]

I bought a volt to replace our gas guzzling minivan. This was after I bought the model S. It gets the job done. It's driven twice a day on a 35 mile round trip. Even in winter it stays a pure EV 99% of the time. In fact it asked to run the engine a few days ago because it hadn't run in awhile. That was amusing.

My son is in a full leg cast at the moment so he is using a wheelchair. It fits in the back of the volt. It wouldn't fit in my wife's Lexus hybrid. The only downside to the volt that I've found is that it won't fit 5 people because of the rear center console.

With the various incentives last year and the tax credit the volt was also reasonably priced.

 

[birdsaresmarter]

The point of the PiP (in my opinion) is that it gets rid of some of the inefficiencies of the standard Prius. If you try to drive it like a Volt (use the battery until it's empty and then run on gas) you're missing the point. The standard Prius is inefficient when doing the driveway shuffle because the engine always turns on, or going a mile or two to the store because the engine never warms up. It's also inefficient in long stop and go traffic (it's very annoying to have the gas engine come on when you're stuck for more than ten minutes in stop and go traffic). The idea behind the PiP is that you only use the EV mode in those situations, and if you have some EV range left as you're going home then you use it.

The Prius is basically a gas car with some clever electrics to reduce fuel consumption. The PiP just adds a bit more clever electrics to the mix.

+1 to this. We have one of the first 2012 PIP advanced models as well. Were hedging bets to get a car with carpool lane privileges again for commute, originally not knowing if we would really get the S. If you are work-from-home and only need car rarely or as the grocery getter, it's fine as you will use very little gasoline (but it's an expensive car for that IMO). If I were using Prius for distance, I wouldn't bother with the added cost of the PI model based on our experiences. I don't think you really gain any efficiency for that. I think the extra weight actually neutralizes it as the overall MPG is similar to our old GEN II when going distances over probably 30 miles or so. We are now keeping the PIP until GEN III comes out. In hindsight, should have just skipped it (forgetting carpool lane for commute) and drove the Gen II Prius into the ground waiting for Gen III Tesla. Oh well.

 

[brianman]

Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 226% below average

Based on the latest survey, we expect reliability of new models will be 143% below average

Perhaps it's clarified in the original source, but can someone explain the underlined to me.

Are they saying that average is, say, 5 on 1-10 scale and these vehicles rate -6.3 and -2.15?

 

[cwerdna]

^^^
Pictures attached. PiP and regular Prius attached for comparison.

These may help:
Car Reliability FAQ | Answers to Reliability Questions - Consumer Reports
Car Reliability History | Detailed Ratings - Consumer Reports