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Adding batteries to 12 year old solar system (and considering heat source pump)

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I'm starting to look at battery storage. Any suggestions of what systems will work for me? I emailed 3 people from the gvenergy site, one came back saying no stock, another said they don't do my area and a third rang back, promised quotes and nothing has turned up! I read that the Tesla system is very expensive, does it have any uniques that others can't do?

Any recommended installers around Leeds who can give some honest advice on batteries and/or heat/ground source pumps, payback being the interesting discussion. I'm guesstimating a £6k battery system would repay in 6-7 years based on current electricity costs (before the April and Oct rises). Are there any decent forums/websites to read up on??

The other dynamic is I'm currently 54, so might be downsizing the house in 10-15 years.

Ideally I want a system that will charge via solar or automatically charge via Intelligent Octopus and then power the house when solar is low/in the evenings and also be able to power the house in case of a short power cut. Idle thoughts about a heat source pump as well as gas boiler is very old and will need replacing at some time!

12 year old solar system, so assume that inverter won't work, so will need a full system I think. My solar system is as follows:

Power : 4,600 W
8 x Rec PE Silver 245w Solar PV Modules
8 x Rec PE Silver 245w Solar PV Modules

I've picked some random dates of energy consumption as follows:

Peak kw
25-Jan 22.71 17.91
06-Feb 21.14 16.34
21-Mar 16.03 11.23

Average 19.96

This is what my solar has put out recently.

1648802196612.png


Thanks for any advice, pointers etc
 
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We're in Sheffield and have just signed for a 5.5kWh solar system and 5.8kWh battery system with a company from Doncaster, they came out quickly enough and did a couple of on-site surveys for both the panels and battery. We've been happy with their interactions so far.

They were recommended by a friend who had their install done around 2 years ago, so the ability to see an equivalent system up and running and working in the same locality really helped sell it for us.

I'm not sure on the payback aspect but the numbers we came up with ourselves based on what our friend generated in the past 12 months should give us a 5-8 year payback (we think!). Obviously it all really depends what happens to the price of electricity in the medium (and short) term.

Pete
 
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If you have a 12 year old system you have to factor in that you're on a high FIT and you'll lose that if you replace parts of it to install a battery.. so that increases payback time.

GiveEnergy seem hard to get hold of.. most of these companies would rather sell you a powerwall IME - my enquiries so far have been ignored or they recommended powerwall @ 12k...
 
If you have a 12 year old system you have to factor in that you're on a high FIT and you'll lose that if you replace parts of it to install a battery.. so that increases payback time.

Yes I am, didn't realise I'd lose the FIT payments, although not sure I will?

I think they just pay me a % of what I generate as it was all installed before smart meters etc so they cannot and don't measure what I actually really export.

This seems to say I will be fine - Solar Battery with Smart Meter Will Not Stop FiT Payments (solarguide.co.uk)
 
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The advice I've got is that any change to the system (panels, inverter) means it's not the same system and needs to be reassessed so no longer qualifies for FIT. I'm sure battery systems exist that don't need an inverter change but I'm having trouble tracking them down (seems simple enough, it's just a big UPS).

That article is wierd.. no idea what smart meters have to do with anything.
 
Smart meters were meant to measure exactly what you export vs the 50% payment I'm on now, so I suspect that's why it's important, ie if all solar is diverted to a battery and nothing exported, I'd get no export payments.

Have you seen anything official on a document/website about changing and losing fit payments?
 
All I can find online is 'it's complicated'. But I've been told verbally that's the case.. went though this a while ago - the numpty that installed my solar panels left part of the roof uncovered because he thought it was part of the neighbours (he could have just asked.. or looked..) and I was looking at filling that with panels and that was what I was told - not worth it because it'd lose my FIT - and that wasn't very high to start with (~£300 a year on a good year).

Personally I'm looking at a small battery.. probably the smallest you can get due to the size of my system and how infrequently there's excess (eg. today it's cloudy so although it's warm I'm importing). I could almost get away with splicing a UPS into the feed from the PV system (not going to, before anyone starts..).
 
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All I can find online is 'it's complicated'. But I've been told verbally that's the case.. went though this a while ago - the numpty that installed my solar panels left part of the roof uncovered because he thought it was part of the neighbours (he could have just asked.. or looked..) and I was looking at filling that with panels and that was what I was told - not worth it because it'd cost more in FIT than you'd gain in power generation.
Ok so I've found this, the issue seems to be more about increasing the total capacity size vs adding batteries?

How to avoid jeopardising FiT payments with solar repairs - Farmers Weekly (fwi.co.uk)
 
Also, supplying the house during a power cut requires a very specific setup. AFAIK, the Powerwall does it as part of the package. Other systems will require a method of "islanding" the house during a powercut to prevent the battery from feeding power into the grid and frying a line worker somewhere. If all you want is one of two sockets to plug a kettle in, then that's easy to achieve as some systems have an Emergency Power Outlet (normally not wired at installation unless specifically requested). To power a substantial portion of the house is a completley different kettle of fish and can require separate grounding and a seperate consumer unit and dedicated circuits.
 
I had my FIT panels installed in 2015. I’ve since added 2 Powerwalls which didn’t affect FIT and a further set of panels that run separately and also don’t affect FIT and cannot export.
the Powerwall Gateway monitors everything and shuts down the new panels when the old ones are exporting
powerwall gateway also disconnects from grid during a power cut, allowing everything to keep running
 
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AC inverter for batteries can be downstream and entirely disconnected from the PV/FIT system. Using current sensors (CT clamps) it can figure out when you're exporting (excess generation) and charge wiht the same level of demand to pull that from the PV before it hits the grid
 
As far as I'm aware in order to keep the current FIT you cant increase the rated output - so cant add newer panels of a higher capacity output - however I cant find anything regarding swapping any panels for higher efficiency, however a moot point because you are not changing panels just adding a battery system.
Inverters typically have a 10 to 25 year life, the older ones and I assume your current inverter is the same age as your system must be coming to its end of life, provided you swap the inverter to the same rated capacity then FIT continues. The typical rated capacities for domestic properties were 4KW (3.68) and 5KW, If you have the approval for the higher fit rate (of the day) then your inverter would be the 3.68 Kw one, I assume your rated output of 4600Kw takes into account the roof azimuth - not true south facing roof - so approvals over 4KW allow a little over because your roof isn't optimum. If your roof is true South, and the inverter 5KW then approval would have been at the lower FIT rate. However - whatever FIT you have will be maintained as long as you don't increase potential generation - so replace the inverter to accommodate batteries with the same rating as the one you currently have.

If you want power when the grid goes down then ask for a EPS switch, fully automatic ones are available but manual ones that cost a bit less can be fitted, The EPS manual switch has to be switched when power goes down from the grid before you get any access to your stored power in the batteries, Fully auto switches do this when it detects the grid signal has gone but usually there is a few seconds between the power down and back on again from the batteries. Is it worth it? - depends how reliable your grid supply is - but can always be fitted later if need be. You can get inverters with built in EPS too.
There are two battery system types to consider, your system fitted will determine which type you can have. The powerwall has EPS built in but you would need to establish if its suitable should you favour that route.

Battery size? - look at your average annual consumption and divide by 365 to establish your daily consumption, my view is to have a capacity broadly similar to that or indeed above it. I use 17 KWhrs per day but my battery size is 13.5Kws - which is the maximum my system can take (I have Solax triple power x 3 4.5Kwhr batteries gen 1, When i had these batteries it wasn't common for people to install batteries, nowadays the capacities can be increased so much more)
However, my system provides me pretty much free electricity - The system powers the house - solar generated and storage free except the daily charge for maybe 9 months of the year - the FIT payments of around £300 per year (I am on the lowest FIT payments before they phased out FIT) just about cover the electricity costs for the other 3 months when generation is low (Dec, Jan, Feb)

I get the deemed 50% export plus the payment for 100% of the generation but rarely export because it either goes into the batteries and power the house or to charge the car. I used the granny charger and if the batteries are full and generation is over 2.5Kwhrs then i plug in and reduce the export to virtually nothing. I only use the granny charger because its absolutely free on sunny days and as I'm retired I rarely drop below 80% charge anyway - so i keep it topped up to 90% most of the time.
 
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As far as I'm aware in order to keep the current FIT you cant increase the rated output - so cant add newer panels of a higher capacity output - however I cant find anything regarding swapping any panels for higher efficiency, however a moot point because you are not changing panels just adding a battery system.
Inverters typically have a 10 to 25 year life, the older ones and I assume your current inverter is the same age as your system must be coming to its end of life, provided you swap the inverter to the same rated capacity then FIT continues. The typical rated capacities for domestic properties were 4KW (3.68) and 5KW, If you have the approval for the higher fit rate (of the day) then your inverter would be the 3.68 Kw one, I assume your rated output of 4600Kw takes into account the roof azimuth - not true south facing roof - so approvals over 4KW allow a little over because your roof isn't optimum. If your roof is true South, and the inverter 5KW then approval would have been at the lower FIT rate. However - whatever FIT you have will be maintained as long as you don't increase potential generation - so replace the inverter to accommodate batteries with the same rating as the one you currently have.

If you want power when the grid goes down then ask for a EPS switch, fully automatic ones are available but manual ones that cost a bit less can be fitted, The EPS manual switch has to be switched when power goes down from the grid before you get any access to your stored power in the batteries, Fully auto switches do this when it detects the grid signal has gone but usually there is a few seconds between the power down and back on again from the batteries. Is it worth it? - depends how reliable your grid supply is - but can always be fitted later if need be. You can get inverters with built in EPS too.
There are two battery system types to consider, your system fitted will determine which type you can have. The powerwall has EPS built in but you would need to establish if its suitable should you favour that route.

Battery size? - look at your average annual consumption and divide by 365 to establish your daily consumption, my view is to have a capacity broadly similar to that or indeed above it. I use 17 KWhrs per day but my battery size is 13.5Kws - which is the maximum my system can take (I have Solax triple power x 3 4.5Kwhr batteries gen 1, When i had these batteries it wasn't common for people to install batteries, nowadays the capacities can be increased so much more)
However, my system provides me pretty much free electricity - The system powers the house - solar generated and storage free except the daily charge for maybe 9 months of the year - the FIT payments of around £300 per year (I am on the lowest FIT payments before they phased out FIT) just about cover the electricity costs for the other 3 months when generation is low (Dec, Jan, Feb)

I get the deemed 50% export plus the payment for 100% of the generation but rarely export because it either goes into the batteries and power the house or to charge the car. I used the granny charger and if the batteries are full and generation is over 2.5Kwhrs then i plug in and reduce the export to virtually nothing. I only use the granny charger because its absolutely free on sunny days and as I'm retired I rarely drop below 80% charge anyway - so i keep it topped up to 90% most of the time.
Interesting what you say about FIT rates. I don’t think I ever understood how they were arrived at. My original 2015 install is 28 x 250 w panels (7KW) running through two 3.68 inverters. I’m on higher rate (less than 10kW)
 
@GlynG I think PV/inverter and deemed export is based on a generation meter at the Inverter - so even if you have a battery downstream it shouldn’t affect the PV-Inverter- generation meter part. You just won’t get paid for anything the battery exports to the grid (which is fine, I’d set mine to not export)
 
Um. So, I'm not in the UK, I'm on the other side of the pond. But my system was installed back in 2008, which also makes it 12 years old. And there's Stuff.
So, back in the day, one had a choice between amorphous silicon (has this mottled blue color), which was cheaper than the alternative, crystalline silicon (solid blue, no mottled color, more efficient so one needed fewer panels for the same power. Further, the power variation was more severe (over temp, daylight angle, and all that) with the amorphous silicon than with the crystalline.
Next: The inverters. At the time in the U.S., batteries were pretty much of the lead-acid type so, unless one really needed them, one didn't install them. Given that that was the case, strings of solar panels in series and/or parallel (say, 9 panels in a string, put in parallel with another 9 panels in a string) were wired up and applied directly to an inverter. When the sun was down, 0 volts. When the sun was just over the horizon, maybe 100V; when it was noon, 240V, and so on. So, wildly varying voltage, the inverter would wildly vary the current drawn from the panels, always hunting for the point where the product of V*I was maximized. So the power output would very definitely vary with time of day, cloud cover, and so on. And throw into that mix the temperature, because (natch) the panels tend to be a bit more efficient when they're cold, and so on.
Now, lets talk about losses. Say one has that example of 9 panels in series, paralleled with 9 other panels in series. Say that the sun shineth at some angle and temperature. Those panels have manufacturing variations: Some will have higher voltages, some will have lower voltages, and the variation will be at random because, well, manufacturing. This means that the nominal voltage on one batch of 9 panels won't be the same on the other batch of 9 panels - so the higher guy will kind of back-drive, but not completely, the lower batch. Result: One will not get the max power out of the panels on the lower-voltage string. Which leads to losses. It's not unusual to get 5% to 10% less power out of the panels on one's roof than one might think by summing up the power available by multiplying the manufacturer's spec'd power times the number of panels.
It gets worse. Remember that inverter? If one designs an inverter that has a wide-ranging input voltage/current, it's not going to be quite as efficient as an inverter that has, say, a fixed input voltage.
Finally: Just because some panel with some illumination has a particular voltage and current where it maximizes its output power, the panel next in line might very well have different voltages and currents that maximize its output power - which might be very close, or different, than the first panel.
So, in my case, I happen to have a nominal maximum power of all the panels on the roof of some 9.02 kW. The inverters (I happen to have two) have a maximum output power of 7.8 kW - and they very rarely hit that power level. It's all about the losses/manufacturing variations. That's a 13.5% loss at max power, and we're not even talking about what happens at 1/2 or 1/4 illumination, temperature, and all that jazz.
However, Technology Has Changed, And For the Better.
First, let's talk about how string/panel technology has changed.
  1. Typically, each individual panel has upon it a DC-DC converter that takes the voltage and current from the panel and converts it to a different voltage and current on the output. These converters are typically highly efficient, in the 95% to 98% range. Further, the panels in series can communicate with each other, for the purpose of setting the output voltage. You'll see why in a minute.
  2. Next: Wire up a bunch of these panels in series. The outputs are in series. Because they're in series, they all have the same current. But! They talk to each other. The total voltage across the string is set to a fixed value, typically 300V.
  3. Let's say we have 10 panels in series. So, each panel's DC-DC converter output would be, nominally, 30V. But, say that one panel is doing well today: It increases its voltage compared to the rest a bit, so it's V*I = P = Pmax for that panel, at that time. The others, who aren't doing as well as our well-doing one, reduce their voltage a bit. But, given Variations, we end up with an enforced 300V across all of them, with different voltages, but the same current across each panel, with the result that each panel is independently operating at its maximum power given the conditions.
Breather time. So, say that these DC-DC converters have, say, 3% inefficiency. But that more than makes up for the lack of losses because of manufacturing-variation-mis-matched panels!

Further, since all these strings of, say, five strings of 10 panels each are in parallel, the overall voltage is still 300V, with each panel doing its personal level best.
Finally: We have a nifty, fixed, 300V on the Entire Array. Feed that to an inverter that:
  1. Is optimized for 300V operation. Yea! Less losses.
  2. And here's the tricky bit: Has a 300V battery built in.
  3. And talks to all the DC-DC converters out there.
Charging/discharging the battery works well, it's on the solar panel side of things, pretty much, so one doesn't have to go crazy (like with my 12V lead-acid battery example) upconverting or downconverting the voltage into the batteries. The inverter side of things converts from 300 VDC to city power..

The electronics is cheaper.
The panels run at the full efficiency that they're capable of, illumination, temperature, and all.
There's losses in the DC-DC converters, but they're much less than the 13% to 15% I was citing for my system.
With greater efficiency in the panels (crystalline vs. amorphous) one needs fewer panels to get the same amount of energy.
With greater efficiency in the electronics, one needs fewer panels to get the same amount of energy.

OK, fine. But how does this apply to you?
1. You don't have any of those nifty DC-DC converters. Um. Oops.
2. Don't know how this will affect installing a different inverter.
3. Don't know how this will affect installing a battery.

The World, Somewhere, probably has an inverter/battery system that can work with your panel system, but it might take some searching and comparing this-with-that to find one that meets what you want.

Not saying it can't be done, mind you, but, yes, The Technology Has Changed.
 
@GlynG I think PV/inverter and deemed export is based on a generation meter at the Inverter - so even if you have a battery downstream it shouldn’t affect the PV-Inverter- generation meter part. You just won’t get paid for anything the battery exports to the grid (which is fine, I’d set mine to not export)
My system battery never exports to the grid, its always been that way and don't know if it could be changed - not that i would do that because its just adding cycles to the battery and that will shorten their life. My batteries are rated for 6000 cycles and a ten year guarantee. I have the PV inverter in the loft and my battery system is in the garage (integral garage) - that too has an inverter, the batteries run around 400volts. My export is not recorded just the 50% deemed of my total generation - so I wouldn't ever want to be paid by what i actually export.

Interesting what you say about FIT rates. I don’t think I ever understood how they were arrived at. My original 2015 install is 28 x 250 w panels (7KW) running through two 3.68 inverters. I’m on higher rate (less than 10kW)
I'm pretty sure i don't fully understand the formulas for fit payment levels either, its just so complicated, My understanding was confirmed by the installer as my system is rated at 4.380Kws, I was told that over 4Kws then in order to get approval they had to show the roof orientation wasn't true south and the output would be limited irrespective of what the panels could achieve in optimum sun conditions by the 3.68Kw inverter. If I had the 5Kw Inverter then my panels could theoretically generate the full 4.380Kws and therefore i would only qualify for the lower rate of FIT.

If my understanding is correct, your 7Kwhr system would be paid at the lower FIT rate of the day, but you say you are paid the higher rate, Interestingly you have two 3.68kw inverters, Is it possible the installers only have one Inverter set to export? and therefore the higher FIT rate to be paid - but the house could access the full 7Kws the panels could generate? The more i get to know the less I actually know.