After what time has passed would you consider an FSD class action lawsuit?

[qdeathstar]

A contract is often more than what’s stated on a piece of paper

good luck.

 

[CyberGus]

A contract is often more than what’s stated on a piece of paper

True, which is why most contracts stipulate that "the entire contract is this piece of paper you're holding, and nothing else"

 

[CyberGus]

good luck.

You beat me by that much

 

[am_dmd]

why would they admit to “stopping working” on ap2 and 3 cars and put liability on them... They just need to have one guy work on FSD for those cars until the batteries in the cars crap out...

No need to wait until batteries crap out. Tesla themselves will do it with an update.

 

[Cyberax]

Really!

I guess you missed your contractual agreement with Tesla to use arbitration, meaning even your Small Claims case would likely be kicked. Not to mention it's a losing case.

I guess it's you who don't read contracts. Tesla purchase agreement specifically states:

If you prefer, you may instead take an individual dispute to small claims court

Moreover, it allows you to opt-out of arbitration (which I did):

You may opt out of arbitration within 30 days after signing this Agreement by sending a letter to: Tesla, Inc.; P.O. Box 15430; Fremont,CA 94539-7970, stating your name, Vehicle Identification Number, and intent to opt out of the arbitration provision. If you do not optout, this agreement to arbitrate overrides any different arbitration agreement between us, including any arbitration agreement in alease or finance contract.

 

[qdeathstar]

No need to wait until batteries crap out. Tesla themselves will do it with an update.

that’s my point. They will not expose themselves to liability.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

True, which is why most contracts stipulate that "the entire contract is this piece of paper you're holding, and nothing else"

And hence, as an example, why ‘duty of care’ is often why what’s written on paper is utterly worthless

 

[CyberGus]

And hence, as an example, why ‘duty of care’ is often why what’s written on paper is utterly worthless

My "contract legal words" might not be worth much, but in court, it's worth a hell of allot more than Elon's tweets

 

[rxlawdude]

I guess it's you who don't read contracts. Tesla purchase agreement specifically states:



Moreover, it allows you to opt-out of arbitration (which I did):

Now all you need is a few more class representatives that also, within 30 days of contract signing, sent Tesla a letter opting out of arbitration.

And as to reading contracts, here is mine:

I don't see the language you quoted on my contract, which I did read. But contract language was apparently updated in 2019 to include the section you quoted and to express the 30 day notice to opt out.

I guess we both read our contracts. We already resolved Small Claims Court is an exception, based on AAA policies (American Arbitration Association, not the auto club) and express language above. But that does not have any effect on class actions, for which there is no exception.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

My "contract legal words" might not be worth much, but in court, it's worth a hell of allot more than Elon's tweets

Which contradicts what you stated - the contract words is not the be all & end all
And Tesla (Musk) has done a helluvalot more than tweeting

 

[Cyberax]

Now all you need is a few more class representatives that also, within 30 days of contract signing, sent Tesla a letter opting out of arbitration.

I believe there may be quite a few people who did that.

I personally am not particularly inclined to join a class action suit, but I'll do that unless Tesla actually starts to care about their customers. I also asked my general counsel and she said that it might actually be possible to sue Tesla for fraud in a criminal court, and an enterprising DA can do that to bolster their portfolio.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

I also asked my general counsel and she said that it might actually be possible to sue Tesla for fraud in a criminal court, and an enterprising DA can do that to bolster their portfolio.

Very interesting advice...from an actual lawyer
The ‘preponderance of evidence’ comes into play in civil cases

 

[Cyberax]

Very interesting advice...from an actual lawyer
The ‘preponderance of evidence’ comes into play in civil cases

It's not at all a clear-cut case, for that the DA needed to show that Tesla knew about the impossibility of actually delivering the FSF. But such a case can probably be made.

And moreover, while it might not have been a criminal fraud 3 years ago (if Tesla really believed that the FSD can be achieved), it might be a criminal fraud _now_ if Tesla continues to misrepresent their future capabilities.

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

And moreover, while it might not have been a criminal fraud 3 years ago (if Tesla really believed that the FSD can be achieved), it might be a criminal fraud _now_ if Tesla continues to misrepresent their future capabilities.

Elizabeth Holmes, ex-CEO of Theranos, believes her blood testing technology is still possible. She is still being indicted for fraud

 

[rxlawdude]

I believe there may be quite a few people who did that.

I personally am not particularly inclined to join a class action suit, but I'll do that unless Tesla actually starts to care about their customers. I also asked my general counsel and she said that it might actually be possible to sue Tesla for fraud in a criminal court, and an enterprising DA can do that to bolster their portfolio.

You have a general counsel?

 

[Cyberax]

You have a general counsel?

Is it hard to imagine that somebody with a Model S would have a general counsel in their company?

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Now up to 60% of respondents stating they would take legal action, with 3 already engaging legal services
The tide has well & truly turned with the apologist narrative waning

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

Now up to 60% of respondents stating they would take legal action, with 3 already engaging legal services
The tide has well & truly turned with the apologist narrative waning

Only 30% would do so soon, and what percentage of the 30% were really voting in the spirit of "By FSD, I mean full hands off autonomy & sleeping in your car. Not beta"?

Sleeping in your self driving car at a bare minimum is L4, and this means regulatory approval. What made anyone think Tesla was anywhere close to even applying for regulatory approval? Tesla has always used regulatory as a "get out of jail" free card as it applies to FSD.

It's always been part of the disclaimer.

I'm firmly in the camp of people who bought FSD despite thinking the promise of it was ridiculous. There is likely way more of us than there are true FSD believers. In the FSD true believers camp they are so brainwashed that they'll never sue.

If Tesla releases FSD beta it's likely going to satisfy a lot of people in my camp. So it only leaves a handful of people who either bought very early when FSD was announced or people who didn't do due diligence when buying it.

The time frame is also irrelevant because what's going to piss people off is HW revisions that they can't upgrade to. Where it marks an rather official "you won't ever get autonomous driving mark despite the promise the car was self driving capable".

At that time Tesla will likely simply offer some kind of deal to get people to upgrade. I do expect to see a few isolated lawsuits, but I think its going to be rather anti-climatic where most people simply move on. Some of us to different vehicles, and some of us to simply accepting less.

 

[rxlawdude]

Now up to 60% of respondents stating they would take legal action, with 3 already engaging legal services
The tide has well & truly turned with the apologist narrative waning

Your Holy War continues. I am entertained. Keep it up!

 

[Nuclear Fusion]

Your Holy War continues. I am entertained. Keep it up!

The fact free cheer squad gains another member. Hold out your hand for a free Elon stamp!