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An attempt at a spreadsheet to compare Model 3 vs. A4 operating costs

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#21
StraightDave said:
People have to realize the government is going to get its share whether it's from the pump or the plug. If annual fuel cost for an A4 is $1000/year, then eventually annual cost to charge an EV is going to be a $1000/year.
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In this specific case the comparison involves the owner's own (partial) production of electricity. This should lessen the risk associated with changes in energy prices (including taxation). And any flat-roof owner who chooses BEV over ICE has the option to later install solar panels, thereby reducing the energy cost risk.

It is hard to put a money value on some differences. I am on my third (and final) Audi now and I can assure you that Audi(*) will give you a blank stare and just refer you to their new sales department if you inquire about getting that new, cool functionality of the software in your already purchased car. Since Audi is quite conservative I do not expect them to change their policy regarding this. And as the role that software plays in your car gets increasingly important, Tesla's automatic software updates has a significant long-term value - also when it come to a resale. Think about being able to unlock the Model 3's auto-pilot capability just by making a payment to Tesla.

I will not be surprised if Tesla Motors will sell battery upgrades to Tesla owners. For an Audi a reasonable analogy would be an upgrade of the engine. Good luck with that.

One small BEV advantage is that regenerative breaking reduces your expense for brake pads. Especially in the US where there is not a lot of spread in the general driving speeds, you should be able to rely heavily on regen.

So there are many factors to consider.

(*) Living in Germany, I actually deal with Audi, not some dealer.
 
#22
Dogwhistle said:
Tesla does not REQUIRE the $600/yr maintenance plan be accomplished to maintain a valid warranty. You can blow it off entirely, and are still good to go as far as Tesla is concerned. Just get new tires when the wear out. As alluded to above, the service plan is more for extra piece of mind for their well-heeled buyers of the S who are used to paying for such things for their luxury cars. Pure extra profit.
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They are not allowed to require you to service the car at Tesla by law. However, to maintain your warranty, you ARE required to perform the required maintenance either on your own, or by a qualified third party shop (*cough*nonexistant*cough).

So for a Model S, you would still need to do the 2 year/25,000 mile brake fluid flush and the 5 year/62,500 mile battery coolant flush. and they actually specify in the manual those two items are not user serviceable. So those are the $700 and $900 service visits, so I would expect to pay at least that amount.
 
#24
StraightDave said:
"A range of government authorities share in the tax revenue from the gasoline consumers buy. To start, there’s the federal gasoline tax of 18.4 cents per gallon. A variety of state and local sales and excise taxes help boost the price as well. All told, American motorists pay an average of nearly 50 cents per gallon in taxes every time they fill up."

People have to realize the government is going to get its share whether it's from the pump or the plug. If annual fuel cost for an A4 is $1000/year, then eventually annual cost to charge an EV is going to be a $1000/year.
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I understand this but I think I'll exclude it from my sheet until the tax comes into existence at which time I'll add it. Thanks.
 
#25
I read that after 100,000 miles battery capacity still should be at 80 to 85% on the model S. But that doesn't include the fact that you could have cells go bad. In that case you'd have a pretty hefty unexpected expense seeing that you'll most likely be out of your battery warranty by that time (8 years on a model s). It's always been my biggest concern with electric cars.

Jim R said:
Another relevant question you may want to consider for your comparison:
What is the lifespan of the Tesla batteries and what is the cost to replace them?

If the batteries last x years, depreciation will reflect the cost of their replacement as the car approaches x years of age.
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#26
Your cost of electricity calculations might need a bit of tweaking. If you are charging at night like most people, you are actually going to be charging your Model 3 100% off the grid. If you have net metering with your utility, your excess generation during the day will help offset your total electric bill, which will, of course, help offset your fuel costs for your Model 3.

The other thing I do not see in your calculation is if your utility offers special EV rates or ToU discounts which would help lower your grid charging costs.
 
#28
At the ten-year mark, you might need to factor in battery replacement.

From what I've read the current battery replacement cost is $12,000 for a Model S, though I expect that will drop.

A lot of Toyota Prius lithium batteries die at the ten-year mark. I would naturally hope for the Tesla battery to last much longer; but it's hard to say at this point.
 
#29
A cool post, and one that hits close to home as I've been a loyal Audi driver for 20 years and currently have a 9 yr old A4. I've loved every one I've ever owned, but they are definitely on the high side of the maintenance equation, as would be a 3 series Bimmer or a C class Benz over such a time period. Everyone who's posted so far has brought up good points on how this is very challenging to calculate accurately due to the variables mentioned on both sides of the ledger.
My input would be that the maintenance costs quoted for the A4 are definitely on the low side, especially if you're having dealers perform the work. Just have a look at the maintenance schedule: https://www.audiusa.com/content/dam...ntenance-Schedule-Model-Year-2016_updated.pdf
Those "Major" ones, of which there should be 5 over the 10 years if we assume the average 12,000 miles/year profile, have in general cost me around $500 a crack. Then add another six "standard" service stops at around $200 ea. So we're at $370 per year averaged over 10 years. To that I'm pretty certain the brakes will need to be done twice at anywhere from $600 to $1400 depending on what's required, who does the work, OE vs jobber parts. So there's another $1200 to $2800. And there will most certainly be other out-of-warranty mechanical wear items and repairs needed in years 5 through 10. $600/yr would still be on the low side as per my experience, but not unusual for this type of car.
Now... if you want to compare costs to a Prius, Volt, Corolla, or even Leaf, then we will have some very different numbers. And since many of you here are part of that group it would be an equally valid and interesting exercise.
 
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#32
omarsultan said:
Your cost of electricity calculations might need a bit of tweaking. If you are charging at night like most people, you are actually going to be charging your Model 3 100% off the grid. If you have net metering with your utility, your excess generation during the day will help offset your total electric bill, which will, of course, help offset your fuel costs for your Model 3.

The other thing I do not see in your calculation is if your utility offers special EV rates or ToU discounts which would help lower your grid charging costs.
Click to expand...

Yes - although I will primarily charge at night, the 2300 kWhs of excess energy I have coming from my solar system annually to go to my M3 on the sheet are really via net metered kWhs that can be "used up" during the day or night so that when I pull juice from the grid, I simply reduce my number of those excess kWhs, cancelling out the grid kWhs I'm actually using then at their full retail value (after having paid the lesser rate for them to my solar company).

I'll look into the EV rate discounts but knowing NJ tends to be one of the least environment friendly states with such credits and rebates, I don't expect to find anything.
 
#33
I like your "Man Maths", as we say in England. I promised the other half I would do a similar calculation for my BMW 135i to justify selling it and converting my £1000 deposit into a model III. You have saved me the effort!!
 
#34
Az_Rael said:
They are not allowed to require you to service the car at Tesla by law. However, to maintain your warranty, you ARE required to perform the required maintenance either on your own, or by a qualified third party shop (*cough*nonexistant*cough).

So for a Model S, you would still need to do the 2 year/25,000 mile brake fluid flush and the 5 year/62,500 mile battery coolant flush. and they actually specify in the manual those two items are not user serviceable. So those are the $700 and $900 service visits, so I would expect to pay at least that amount.
Click to expand...
Fair enough, and I'm sure those will be much cheaper for the Model 3.
 
#35
Az_Rael said:
They are not allowed to require you to service the car at Tesla by law. However, to maintain your warranty, you ARE required to perform the required maintenance either on your own, or by a qualified third party shop (*cough*nonexistant*cough).

So for a Model S, you would still need to do the 2 year/25,000 mile brake fluid flush and the 5 year/62,500 mile battery coolant flush. and they actually specify in the manual those two items are not user serviceable. So those are the $700 and $900 service visits, so I would expect to pay at least that amount.
Click to expand...

Not a Tesla owner yet, but I thought that the warranty holds even if you don't service using Tesla. However if you bought using tesla finance, then getting the guaranteed minimum price at the end of the finance requires you to use Tesla servicing.

Dan
 
#36
Paddy said:
Not a Tesla owner yet, but I thought that the warranty holds even if you don't service using Tesla. However if you bought using tesla finance, then getting the guaranteed minimum price at the end of the finance requires you to use Tesla servicing.

Dan
Click to expand...

Tesla doesn't have to do it but someone else does need to do it to maintain the warranty. And yes, if you want the resale guarantee or the extended warranty, Tesla has to perform the service for you.

So you will have to find someone else who can do that brake flush and battery coolant flush for you (and keep your records of having it done). Which is kind of a problem right now with Tesla. Those 3rd party shops don't exist.


I actually think this is going to be a potential big problem for people buying the Model 3 that they won't find out about until after they have the car. Everyone is used to being able to have their cars serviced at Jiffy Lubes or independent shops if they don't want to pay the dealer's high fees. That's not currently an option with a Tesla. And Tesla is very unfriendly to making it possible. They had to be sued in one state to even release the service manuals and you can only access them if you live in that state.
 
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