I always wonder why the Tesla European pricing are so much higher than in US. I do notice that some European price listed at Tesla website does include VAT tax, while US pricing doesn't include tax. But still doesn't account for the big difference. Maybe there are other incentive in Europe to bring the cost down?
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Actually it appears that excluding taxes the model s is significantly cheaper in France than in the US. Base Car is 71k euros out the door. Sales tax is 13k! That is 58k euros before any tax incentives, or taxes. Here it's $66k.
To that you add $8 gallon of gas..... I think model s would make more sense back home than here in CA
To that you add $8 gallon of gas..... I think model s would make more sense back home than here in CA
heysteveh
Member
If the following posts are correct then I don't see much advantage to upgrading from the 60 to the 75 battery option for most people, myself included. For my everyday around town driving, the 60 would have more than enough range. And when I go on vacation and need the extra range of the 75... well these posts seem to say that you if had the 75 you would only charge it at the SC's to 80% which would give you the equivalent of the 60 battery. And if you have the 60 battery you can charge it just as quickly to the same amount. So why would anyone buy/upgrade to the 75?
RogerHScott
Active Member
For the ability to charge it to 100% and get that additional range. That said, you'd want to be really sure you needed
that before you paid the substantial premium. As I think someone already pointed out, many SCs are now less than a
60's range apart, so you don't need that extra range for most SC-supported travel. There are still some larger gaps, but
we all hope those will be filled before too long (e.g., western NY, north-central PA).
heysteveh
Member
This was my first thought as well about the advantage of the upgrade to the 75 over the 60. But what many other posters are saying is that on a long trip you will realistically only be charging the 75 to 80% capacity which would be the same range as the 60. And since the 60 is in reality a locked 75 you can charge it to it's full 60kw capacity in the same short amount of time thereby negating any advantage of the 75 on a long trip (except if you have the 75 charged to 100% to START your trip... but after that you would only be charging it to 80% at the SC's). So if the 60 has enough range for you for your normal everyday driving needs, and if there is really no advantage to the 75's higher range realistically speaking on a longer trip, I ask again: WHY WOULD YOU PAY THE EXTRA FOR A 75 OVER A 60?
Perfect... as my wife and friends say, Tesla is the Palo Alto Camry!
We are all just supporting the local car company
.Here's a crazy thought.
Tesla went from 85-->90, 3k IIRC. 70-->75, 3k too... so we all got used to a $3k or so battery upgrade uption.
Now:
60-->75; 8.5-9k.
So, let's just say
90-->105; 9k?
Maybe marketing is trying to get us used to a larger price point for a larger battery upgrade? Testing the waters with 60?
Here's to hoping that those newer 90s out there are limited 100 or 105s...
Tesla went from 85-->90, 3k IIRC. 70-->75, 3k too... so we all got used to a $3k or so battery upgrade uption.
Now:
60-->75; 8.5-9k.
So, let's just say
90-->105; 9k?
Maybe marketing is trying to get us used to a larger price point for a larger battery upgrade? Testing the waters with 60?
Here's to hoping that those newer 90s out there are limited 100 or 105s...
The best thing about the 60/60D announcement is that buyers have more choice.
Want a lower point of entry price to get into an S? Get the 60/60D.
Want a solid car with solid performance, but don't want to shell out for a 90/90D? Get the 75/75D.
Undecided if you can live with the range of a 60 kWh or not for your specific driving patterns and want to drive it for a few months before deciding? Get the 60/60D.
There are some buyers who don't mind doing more planning to live with a smaller 60kWh battery, and there are others who don't mind stepping up to 75kWh to alleviate some of that planning/hassle. Everyone wins!
To those who are peeved that a 75kWh is like unlockable "DLC", you buy and receive exactly what you pay for, a 60kWh battery (along with some fringe benefits of battery charging speed and longevity), and have an option to upgrade for a reasonable price if you decide you want more range. Would you rather receive ONLY a 60kWh battery and not have any options?
Personally I purchased a pre-refresh 2016 70D and would be thrilled if I found out I really had an 85kWh or 90wWh pack.
Want a lower point of entry price to get into an S? Get the 60/60D.
Want a solid car with solid performance, but don't want to shell out for a 90/90D? Get the 75/75D.
Undecided if you can live with the range of a 60 kWh or not for your specific driving patterns and want to drive it for a few months before deciding? Get the 60/60D.
There are some buyers who don't mind doing more planning to live with a smaller 60kWh battery, and there are others who don't mind stepping up to 75kWh to alleviate some of that planning/hassle. Everyone wins!
To those who are peeved that a 75kWh is like unlockable "DLC", you buy and receive exactly what you pay for, a 60kWh battery (along with some fringe benefits of battery charging speed and longevity), and have an option to upgrade for a reasonable price if you decide you want more range. Would you rather receive ONLY a 60kWh battery and not have any options?
Personally I purchased a pre-refresh 2016 70D and would be thrilled if I found out I really had an 85kWh or 90wWh pack.
RogerHScott
Active Member
As I said, although the SC network covers most long-distance travel even with a 60, there are larger gaps where a 75 would either get you there or at least significantly reduce range anxiety along the way. Realistically, I think the number of people for whom it would really be worth it is small -- and shrinking, as the SC network gets filled in.
Here's a crazy thought.
Tesla went from 85-->90, 3k IIRC. 70-->75, 3k too... so we all got used to a $3k or so battery upgrade uption.
Now:
60-->75; 8.5-9k.
So, let's just say
90-->105; 9k?
Maybe marketing is trying to get us used to a larger price point for a larger battery upgrade? Testing the waters with 60?
Here's to hoping that those newer 90s out there are limited 100 or 105s...
I think I read somewhere that someone asked Tesla how much it'd cost to change out the 85 battery for the 90, and the price he was quoted was on the order of 22k. Elon has been quoted as saying that present Model S owners should probably wait until a more significant bump in battery capacity before upgrading.
90 to 105 being 9k doesn't sound unreasonable, but with an ever growing Supercharger network covering most long distance travel needs, is there really any additional benefit to keep raising the battery capacity? You're just dragging along more weight. I'm guessing they're going to take a look at the numbers of people upgrading from 60 to 75, and see how that compares to the numbers of people purchasing 90s.
When I was first looking at the Model S and deciding between the 60 and the 85, the Supercharger network wasn't as built out as it is now. These days I'd just recommend to people that they get the 60, and get the 60D if they need AWD.
Compare to costs of the upgrades:
60: 210 miles range / 75: 249 miles -- 39 miles for 9k ($231 per mile/$600 per kWh).
60D: 218 miles range / 75D: 259 miles -- 41 miles for 9k ($220 per mile / $600 per kWh).
I'm extrapolating for the 90D ($89,500) vs 60D ($71,000) -- cost for the additional range is $18,500
90D: 294 miles range -- 76 miles range for $18,500 ($243 per mile / $617 per kWh)
P90D: 270 miles range -- 52 miles range for $18,500 ($356 per mile / $617 per kWh)
If there was a 90 to 105 upgrade, it probably would cost 9-10k -- you'd probably get another 38 miles on the 105D, and 26 additional miles on the P105D.
I'd argue that the 60/60D range is good enough for most people -- the 90D is really only when you do a lot of road trips/driving where superchargers / EV charging stations aren't as commonplace/available.
I think I'd rather not have Tesla giving them more battery capacity that the owner wouldn't upgrade for. I suppose if Tesla gets the car back as a lease return, they can resell it as a 75, but having the extra capacity in there does have a cost too, especially if the owner never upgrades the capacity , that's just extra dead weight they're driving around for the lifetime of the car.
Checked Evtripplanner for long beach to tampa. Classic 60 takes 4 hours longer charging than 70. Every thing else close to same except one leg. If you assume that new 60 charges at the same rate as a 70, you can use the 70 chart. Ev never charges more than 90% ,which is the range charge for new 60. You just have 2 range charges which should not take more time than 90% on the 70. At worst you take 4 hours longer
I don't mind the extra time charging -- I think the stopovers at Superchargers are some of the most relaxing parts of road trips.
Agree. It does show that there is little real bang for the buck going to the 75. The 90d is another matter. Fewer stops, higher speeds, no range anxiety. However, it costs one third more. If you aren't interested in the extra performance, the people who really need the extra range are fairly small.
The new 60 should supercharge a bit faster than the old 70 kwh car. Remember the new 60 is a software limited 75kwh car. Higher battery capacity means slower tapering in supercharging, which means less charge time.
I am not so sure about that. If you look back at when the choices were the original 60 and 85, the 85 outsold the 60 by about 3 to 1.
It will be interesting and I am very curious how the sales numbers will split between the 60, the 75 and the 90 in the current lineup.
Not sure you can directly correlate sales numbers of 85 vs 60 to those who need the additional range. Some people will just buy the "best" one. And in this price category there may be fewer buyers who are price sensitive. Also, when the choices were 60 or 85, what was the state of the supercharger network? There's also the perception of what you need and the reality of what you need. I would expect most buyers do not need greater range -- but many think they do. (Or can afford to not really think about it too much...)
AustinPowers
Total Smeghead
Actually it appears that excluding taxes the model s is significantly cheaper in France than in the US. Base Car is 71k euros out the door. Sales tax is 13k! That is 58k euros before any tax incentives, or taxes. Here it's $66k.
To that you add $8 gallon of gas..... I think model s would make more sense back home than here in CA
But don't forget, 58K Euro is 66K USD. Where's the difference?
And yes, the German prices I listed include 19% VAT, but even so, the net base price of a naked unoptioned S 60 is still 64,300 Euro (~72,500 USD), way above the limit for the German EV incentive program (at which Tesla doesn't participate anyway). Plus, for the private customer the net price is of no relevance as he has to pay the full taxes.
And what the hell - the base price for an S 60 in France including VAT is only 70,800 Euro, versus 76,600 Euro in Germany? Even though the VAT rate in France is higher than in Germany?
Has the French incentive of 10,000 Euro been factored in into that price already? If not, how come a French Model S is so much cheaper than a German one? I thought we had a common European market. So much for that. If that price relationship is the same for Model 3, I might actually buy mine in France and brush up my language skills to be able to read the manual and the screens
Plus, wait a minute, are you saying that from that base price of 70,800 Euro you could deduct the 10K Euro incentive to only have to pay 60,800 Euro effectively? That would be truly something.
At least it is another reason why the Model S is not the "German Camry" (which would be a wrong analogy anyway as there is no such thing as a Camry sold over here - actually there used to be, but it didn't sell so they stopped importing them more than ten years ago). And the latest price increase won't help either. Model 3 can't come soon enough!
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