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Another discussion about EVs as they compare to ICEVs

Discussion in 'Electric Vehicles' started by Yggdrasill, Mar 28, 2017.

  1. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    Absolutely disagree. Electric drive is vastly superior when it comes to responsiveness, seamlessness, noise levels, etc. You also have regen which enables one pedal driving. The ICE is utterly obsolete, it just takes some time for it to sink in.
     
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  2. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    Sorry, but that is bull****.

    I have driven countless ICE cars in my life.
    I have also driven 5 different BEVs (Zoe, e-Golf (twice), i3, 2013 Model S P85, 2016 Model S P100DL).
    None of the BEVs felt much different to any other ICE.
    They were quieter, but only up to a certain speed. Above about 60mph the difference was getting ever smaller.

    The Model S's had quite a bit better acceleration than most other cars. Then again, an M5 has quite impressive acceleration as well, responsiveness and above all, handling that is far superior to the sluggish responses of a Model S. You don't even need to go as far as an M5. There are many cars that handle far better than a Model S, have more precise steering and better responsiveness, especially at higher speeds, where a Model S rapidly loses its performance superiority. Model S performance on the Autobahn for example is nothing to write home about. Most Model S's you see around here are limping along the Autobahn at around 70mph, whether they have a 60 logo on the back or a P100D.

    ICE cars will eventually become obsolete, but BEVs are not quite there yet.
    But what I do agree on is that BEVs never had as much momentum and potential as they have now. Hell, I wouldn't dream of buying one myself if I couldn't see their potential.
     
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  3. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    Is there such as thing as 'entry level' luxury? Like Jumbo Shrimp? Or Mini- Van?

    Even to people who believe cars are appliances, there are some large differences they will notice immediately when switching to EV drive.

    1) Full tank every AM. The ultimate in luxury, your groundskeeper takes your car out every night and tops off the tank.
    2) No warmup cycle in normal use.
    3) Less interior noise, especially at stoplights, or parked in the garage with the IGN on.
    4) Lower CG makes the car feel lighter than it is, and makes the steering more precise.
    5) Lower operating costs, felt the first time you dump 16 gallons of liquid into the tank.
    6) Flawlessly smooth transmission, it almost feels like the transmission is gone...

    One of the biggest hurdles EV need to overcome is the damage we did with the early (and even today) hybrids.

    All the downsides of gasoline engines, but terrible performance, with a much higher sticker price.

    EV powertrains in fact are a luxury feature even if you do not care anything about environmental issues. With the exception of Tesla, nobody has really pushed that aspect of them.
     
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  4. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    #4 AustinPowers, Mar 28, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    1) only if you own a house or have a place to charge overnight. Many people don't!
    2) so what? Otoh peak performance is only sustainable for short amounts of time. Countless tests have shown that a Tesla's performance was limited after a short while in order to protect the battery and drive train.
    3) Ever heard of modern start-stop systems? Our Touran is as quiet at a stop-light as any BEV as the engine is off. And why would anyone park with the IGN on?
    4) If that were the case, why has the Model S such sluggish handling and mushy steering?
    5) If the Model 3 maintenance costs are as high as those of a Model S, I will pay as much for 1 year of service as for 10 years on my current BMW. Plus, I forgot that electricity is free where you live.
    6) That I admit is true, and for me the only major benefit that no ICE can match.

    Additonal re operating costs - comparison:

    My car: 60 litre equals 900 km range. At 1.10 Euro per litre that's 7 Eurocents per km.
    Model 3 55kWh equals 345 km range (215 miles). At 0.30 Euro per kWh and a conservative 10% for charging losses/vampire drain (correct me if I'm wrong) that's 5 Eurocents per km.
    Not really an enormous saving or is it?
     
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  5. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    I guess our experiences are different. I have driven a bunch of ICE cars, but none have remotely in any way measured up to a Tesla.

    You hit the throttle, and BAM, you're off. You hit the throttle in an ICE car, it first has to find the right gear (manual is better, that way the car doesn't have to think so long about whether it should do anything), then the turbos have to spin up, then eventually, you start getting power. I drove a brand new entry level Mercedes a few years back, and it was probably the worst car I have ever driven. Probably 2-3 seconds of turbo lag. (On paper, the performance was pretty good, though.)

    I'll admit I haven't tried an enormous amount of premium cars, but there have been some Mercedes and BMWs. I still haven't found an ICE car I would be willing to pay more than 15k USD for. The BMWs probably have a better interior, and more bells and whistles, but in the end, they still use an ICE, and are only marginally better than my Hyundai i30.
    The Autobahn is relevant for 80 million Germans, the other 7.4 billion people on the planet don't really care, myself included.

    Now, sure, high speed range can be a bit disappointing, I estimate that the top spec Model 3 will only go around 300 km (185 miles) at 150 km/h (93 mph), which means a ~30 minute break every two-ish hours. But larger batteries and faster charging is coming. Those who regularly drive for long distances at speeds above 90 mph will get a suitable BEV for them. Right now I'll be happy with a suitable BEV for myself. The Model 3 looks like it will kick ass, but I don't rule out swapping to a Model Y at some point. Model 3 station wagon would be ideal, but I don't expect Tesla to come with that soonish.
     
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  6. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    Sorry to hear that you haven't had the chance to drive a really good ICE car yet.
    If your main comparison is a Hyundai i30, no wonder you don't think highly of them. Had you driven proper ICE cars before, the performance of BEVs wouldn't have amazed you so much. Incidentally, as you mentioned automatic versus manual transmission - no real car enthusiast would ever prefer an automatic over a manual. Just as no true lover of performance cars would ever prefer AP over self-driving. And I say that even though I am by no means a petrolhead myself, not even close. But I love to drive, ICE, BEV, whatever. As long as it's a good one.

    Oh and if performance is only relevant to us Germans (rhetorical, I know it isn't), then why does Tesla even offer things like a P100DL?
    If Elon is right and the world wants autonomous travel pods, why build high-performance BEVs in the first place?
    Answer: of course performance matters to many people all around the globe. The German Autobahn is not the only place in the world where you can drive a car really fast after all.
     
  7. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    #7 AnxietyRanger, Mar 28, 2017
    Last edited: Mar 28, 2017
    Yeah.

    I'm personally not big on supercars, but the Audi R8 5.2 experience I have little, is certainly evidence plenty that high-end ICEs do pack a punch. And can maintain that punch on much wider spectrum.

    I do get what @Yggdrasill is saying about the benefits of EV driving, the paradigm shift if you will, but I also agree with @AustinPowers that we need to be realistic.

    Comparing some lazy-a** ICE with 2-3 second turbo lag to the highest-end EV sedan on the market is not really fair. But EVs sure do have a mean 0-60 when done right. The rest is still up for grabs.

    I mean I can make EVs look plenty bad by taking a Bugatti Chiron and a Nissan Leaf out for a spin. (Well, theoretically, as I'm not in a position to take a Chiron out for a spin. And I don't want to take a Leaf. :))
     
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  8. Az_Rael

    Az_Rael Supporting Member

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    Very true. My husband drives an Audi S4 and it feels just as peppy and fast off the line as a standard 85 I had as a loaner (not D, not P). My P admittedly has a bit more punch, but I don't feel at all deprived in his car. His suspension and handling is much better than my S, so it feels way more fun to zip in and out of traffic, etc. And the DCT transmission "cough" is actually pretty awesome if you are going to be stuck with the multiple gears of an ICE.

    My car is the "road car", since the S is more comfortable on the highway and more spacious inside.
     
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  9. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    Off-topic: I had an S4 of the previous generation and I felt it was more visceral than my Model S P85 in some ways, even though I do know the latter is quicker (and it is).

    I like the S4 as a concept, the size, the level of performance, functionality, not too sports-in-your-face but still a little tuned kit... it is a nicely balanced product.

    I am not surprised your family likes the current one.
     
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  10. Yggdrasill

    Yggdrasill Active Member

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    I also love driving. And I wouldn't look down on the i30 too much. It's certainly not a sports car, but it has decent low-end torque. And on my i30, the clutch is slightly defective - it engages over a fairly small movement of the pedal, making it easy to drop the clutch. Not that many cars get out of the intersections faster than me. (I admit it - I drive it like I stole it.) ;)
    Performance matters. *High-speed* performance - less so. If my car was speed limited at 140 km/h/87 mph, I probably wouldn't ever find out about it. The highest speed limit in Norway is 110 km/h, and Sweden it's 120 km/h. 20 km/h over the speed limit is more than enough for me. On the fun (twisty) roads, it's hard to drive faster than 100 km/h, anyway.
     
  11. phil0909

    phil0909 Member

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    I agree completely with this. I have driven a Lexus LS400 for the past 19 years, and just a few months ago got my first EV. It's a Bolt, meant to tide me over till my Model 3 is ready. Based on comments here and elsewhere, I was expecting a very different 'electric' driving experience, but ended up being surprised at how similar the EV is to a good ICE vehicle. Although my ICE car is ancient, it's very well-built, very quiet, and reasonably peppy. The Bolt is too. I fill up once a day now at home, instead of once a week at the corner gas station, and the EV is a lot smaller, which is kind of fun but really separate from the EV vs ICEV issue. But I'm really not seeing any clear superiority of the EV vs a nice ICEV, even a very old nice ICEV. Kind of a letdown, really. No doubt the Model 3 will be a second or two faster and it will certainly be prettier than the Bolt, but I am no longer expecting the EV to revolutionize my driving experience, nor the auto market in general.

    The one place I don't follow you is where you say Model S's limp down the Autobahn at 70 mph. Why would that be? Surely the car is capable of well over 100. Are they just needing to go slow to preserve range, because the batteries are too small? Germany's not that big, is it?
     
  12. ohmman

    ohmman Maximum Plaid Member

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    "Absolutely nothing" is a good way to weaken an argument. A Model S can recapture energy on downgrades. A Mercedes S class cannot. I suppose that's all that's needed to disprove the argument.
     
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  13. xav-

    xav- Member

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    It's laughable. ICE cars still have a long way to go. All the manufacturers just want to keep the status quo.
     
  14. shrspeedblade

    shrspeedblade Member

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    ......not to mention the 90 MPGE.
     
  15. biosci

    biosci Member

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    If the advertised range for a Tesla is say about 280 miles, when cruising at high speeds does it significantly decrease the range? Let's say 80-85mph?
     
  16. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    I would say it's to preserve range. At normal Autobahn speeds of 80 mph and upwards, the range even of a Tesla (especially an X, but an S as well) drops dramatically. And even though Germany is tiny compared to the US, it is still several hundreds of miles across in all directions, plus Autobahns don't cross the country in straight lines, so distances get even longer.
     
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  17. AustinPowers

    AustinPowers Total Smeghead

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    An S 500 e surely can recuperate as well. And it's the same price range as Model S and X too.
     
  18. Jhall118

    Jhall118 Member

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    Came from a chipped Audi TTS to a P85 and then a P85D. I can't even relate to what you are saying. I find the Tesla more enjoyable in every single way, except when it comes to sliding into a parking spot :) Oh, and rolling with the top down when it's raining in Seattle to mess with people.
     
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  19. McRat

    McRat Active Member

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    I'm assuming you have the '98 LS400 and not the earlier dogs. Your Bolt will reach 93mph about 2 cars lengths ahead of the LS400 at sea level. As altitude and/or temperature climbs, that distance increases. And passing distances are much shorter in the Bolt at all speeds under 93mph.

    But all years and models of Teslas are quicker than Bolts.

    In any case, it's not when you switch from an ICE to an EV that you notice it the most. Drive an EV daily for 6 months, then get into an ICE. Let us know.

    Not that it's relevant, but I've driven over 200mph, under 10 seconds in a quarter, and have drifted a Corvette around a road course.
    So it's not like I don't love driving. It's just that EV drivetrains are the most luxurious of all designs. No, I'm not giving up my manual transmission sportscars, but there is a right tool for all jobs. Street driving? The tool is an EV powertrain.
     
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  20. AnxietyRanger

    AnxietyRanger Well-Known Member

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    I'm not saying the S4 was better than the P85, though it was in certain interior amenities and features. It was a more visceral experience, accelerating it. Of course compared to P85, it also had Torsen AWD (unlike Haldex on the TTS) and a Sports Differential for even more improved handling (though neither Audi or Tesla are kings of handling, that crown is elsewhere).

    The P85 is... surgical, for the lack of a better word, and a little boring. But it has precision in the way it instantly accelerates, that is true.

    Just comparing past personal experiences and sharing some pointless anecdotes, really. :) The D models, of course, on Tesla improve the traction department tremendeously.
     

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