Another discussion about EVs as they compare to ICEVs

[ecarfan]

A BEV (Tesla or otherwise) otoh is basically still just a normal car, a means to get you from A to B. It can't to anything really different to what an ICE car can. Apart from the fact that it uses a different form of energy to propel itself forward, a BEV is just like any other car.
As is a Tesla. A Model S can do absolutely nothing say a Mercedes S class can't do as well. Perhaps it can out-accelerate it over short distances, but that's about it.

Your position is demonstrably incorrect. EVs are fundamentally different from ICE vehicles:

"One pedal" driving experience
Single fixed gear so no gear changes
Regenerative braking
Is "fueled" at home while you sleep so every day you have a "full tank", which is incredibly convenient
Approximately half the number of parts in an EV compared to an ICE
Significantly less vehicle maintenance
Safer due to lack of a large tank full of flammable liquid
Inherently quicker acceleration due to much more torque
Much more efficient use of energy due to reduced drivetrain losses
Zero vehicle emissions and significantly less emissions overall when measured "well to wheel"

I could go on. All the points I made are well established. It is clear that a Model S does many things that a Mercedes S class, or any ICE, cannot do. Yes, EVs have 4 wheels, seats, a steering wheel, and are designed to convey a human(s) from A to B. Beyond that, they are fundamentally different.

An EV is absolutely not "just a normal car".

 

[AnxietyRanger]

I would say @AustinPowers and @ecarfan are arguing semantics. I think both would agree on the list of differences. It comes down to how big a deal you make of it or not - and how you express that.

I agree EV's are paradigm shifting cars. A lot of things change dramatically (some for worse, some for better) when moving to EVs. Then again, the thing the car still only does is goes from A to B while driven.

I would say autonomous drive is the next fundamentally different thing, because it changes what you can do while driving...

 

[ecarfan]

I agree EV's are paradigm shifting cars

Yes, they are. Which certainly means that they are not "just a normal car."

More than semantics is involved here.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Yes, they are. Which certainly means that they are not "just a normal car."

More than semantics is involved here.

Why does it matter?

This was the quote that started it all:

A BEV (Tesla or otherwise) otoh is basically still just a normal car, a means to get you from A to B. It can't to anything really different to what an ICE car can.

That is pretty much true. Sure, there are differences in how an EV is fueled (pros and cons), but it is still a normal car you drive from A to B and that's the extent of its functionality.

One can of course discuss the pros and cons, and there are differences there, but functionality-wise the car can not do anything more. It will not get there faster (likely the opposite), for example, or fulfill some other purpose than an ICE car does (again likely the opposite given the spartan EVs currently on the market).

Now, autonomous drive of course can and will change things. But EV itself... I have a hard time disagreeing with @AustinPowers assessment, but I also agree EV itself of course is a paradigm shifting technology within car making, maintenance and ownership, just not in the basic functionality of the car.

 

[Jleafs]

Your position is demonstrably incorrect. EVs are fundamentally different from ICE vehicles:

The problem is that most of the things you listed are largely irrelevant to most drivers, they do not constitute "fundamental" differences. If I could summarize most of the practical differences, it would be: acceleration, software, smaller carbon footprint and safety. But for the most part, the improvements to date are incremental. You could point to similar gains in an ICE vehicle from 2010 vs. 1990, and I wouldn't say those are fundamentally different.

From a climate change point of view, I certainly think it's incredibly important that we move to reduce emissions. But if we're strictly talking about the driving experience, we're not there yet without significant changes on autonomy and the ownership model.

"One pedal" driving experience - true
Single fixed gear so no gear changes - true, but mostly irrelevant to the 95% of the NA market that drives an automatic
Regenerative braking - completely irrelevant to the driving experience, braking is braking. At best, it mitigates the range problem.
Is "fueled" at home while you sleep so every day you have a "full tank", which is incredibly convenient - unless you don't have a garage with an upgraded outlet, in which case it's incredibly inconvenient.
Approximately half the number of parts in an EV compared to an ICE - why does this matter to a driver?
Significantly less vehicle maintenance - unless something actually breaks, in which case it could be a while to get it fixed.
Safer due to lack of a large tank full of flammable liquid - true, but not a very practical concern.
Inherently quicker acceleration due to much more torque - true
Much more efficient use of energy due to reduced drivetrain losses - why does this matter to a driver?
Zero vehicle emissions and significantly less emissions overall when measured "well to wheel" - true

 

[WarpedOne]

That is pretty much true.

Except that pretty much it is not.

There is one key difference that even ecarfan left out: producing your own propellent is possible with BEV and practically impossible with ICE.
Yes, many won't do it, but many will and some already do.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

Except that pretty much it is not.

There is one key difference that even ecarfan left out: producing your own propellent is possible with BEV and practically impossible with ICE.
Yes, many won't do it, but many will and some already do.

As I conceded, an EV certainly is a paradigm shift in ownership. In many ways.

Just not in functionality in the sense @AustinPowers meant. It is still a vehicle to be driven from A-B. It can't do anything more.

 

[ohmman]

Then again, the thing the car still only does is goes from A to B while driven.

My legs do that as well, but I wouldn't compare them to a car.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

My legs do that as well, but I wouldn't compare them to a car.

You walk with your legs. Both an EV and ICE are driven on four wheels at road speeds, on land using a steering wheel using machine propulsion. Neither of them fly or teleport for example, or (inherently) steer themselves (which by the way will be a major functionality switch).

 

[McRat]

... but I also agree EV itself of course is a paradigm shifting technology within car making, maintenance and ownership, just not in the basic functionality of the car.

While it does not matter to much of world, out in the Western USA, EV's have very nice added bonus, especially in the summer.

There is a fundamental problem with ICE engines that does not exist at all with electric motors. While engineers have greatly reduced this issue in ICE powertrains over the last 110 years, it still exists today, from the $6,000 Tata's to the $3 million Chirons. Supercharging/Turbosupercharging helps but does not completely fix it.

ICE engines run off air, not fuel. You just THINK they run off of fuel. You can dump tremendous amounts of liquid into an cylinder, but the peak amount of oxygen in that cylinder controls your actual power limits.

To make things even worse, the critical radiators that an ICE requires to stop it from overheating work poorly also at high altitudes and temperatures, hence why you see the warnings on grades in the Western US.

And not that it's important, but high Density Altitude negatively affects your efficiency. Compression is 'free' horsepower, but the less air you can get into the cylinder, the lower your effective compression is. Sure you can boost it, but contrary to the Fast n Furious folk, both super and turbochargers do have pumping losses.

So if you live in the high deserts, mountains, or just travel through them, you just received a massive boost in passing power if it's an ICE who does not wish to be passed.

 

[Garlan Garner]

So much better than HUD..

Maybe.. Just Maybe something like this.

This is the Concept Nisan Leaf that is being test driven.,. Its no longer a concept.

I like this much more than the 15" screen in the middle.

Next-gen Nissan LEAF spotted on public roads, design refresh visible despite camouflage

 

[phil0909]

I'm assuming you have the '98 LS400 and not the earlier dogs. Your Bolt will reach 93mph about 2 cars lengths ahead of the LS400 at sea level. As altitude and/or temperature climbs, that distance increases. And passing distances are much shorter in the Bolt at all speeds under 93mph.

Hello McRat. Right you are, I have the '98 model. MotorTrend begs to differ on the speed difference, however. Their test results on both cars actually show that the old Lexus is a couple of tenths of a second quicker to 93.1 mph, but really very close to the Bolt EV for the quarter, 0-60, and passing distances. This despite the fact that the Lexus is a significantly heavier car than the little Bolt.

I did just recently did drive the Lexus again, after about 3 months with the Bolt. I did notice some big differences - much softer suspension, lower ride height, nicer interior. But nothing noticeably different about the engine - still quick, still quiet, very comparable to the EV. The Lexus engine is also seemingly indestructible - it runs like new after all those years and miles, even though I've been quite lazy in maintenance.

Don't get me wrong, EV's certainly have their advantages (and their disadvantages). I like the Bolt, and I expect to like the Model 3 more. But for all the people who think electric motors are vastly superior to ICEs, I'm just not seeing it. At all. Unless you're talking about a cheap little ICE, as discussed above - those are terrible! Toyota was able in 1998 to make an ICE that stacks up pretty well against one of the best (certainly not THE best) EVs of 2017, No doubt ICE manufacturers can do even better today, and at lower price points. My guess is that EVs will win the larger market share someday, but it's going to be a LONG, hard slog.

 

[ohmman]

You walk with your legs. Both an EV and ICE are driven on four wheels at road speeds, on land using a steering wheel using machine propulsion. Neither of them fly or teleport for example, or (inherently) steer themselves (which by the way will be a major functionality switch).

And you see, that's an entirely different argument than the one talking about going from point A to point B. You purposefully phrased it to point out the similarities while ignoring the differences. I think that qualifies as moving the goalposts.

 

[McRat]

Hello McRat. Right you are, I have the '98 model. MotorTrend begs to differ on the speed difference, however. Their test results on both cars actually show that the old Lexus is a couple of tenths of a second quicker to 93.1 mph, but really very close to the Bolt EV for the quarter, 0-60, and passing distances. This despite the fact that the Lexus is a significantly heavier car than the little Bolt.

I did just recently did drive the Lexus again, after about 3 months with the Bolt. I did notice some big differences - much softer suspension, lower ride height, nicer interior. But nothing noticeably different about the engine - still quick, still quiet, very comparable to the EV. The Lexus engine is also seemingly indestructible - it runs like new after all those years and miles, even though I've been quite lazy in maintenance.

Don't get me wrong, EV's certainly have their advantages (and their disadvantages). I like the Bolt, and I expect to like the Model 3 more. But for all the people who think electric motors are vastly superior to ICEs, I'm just not seeing it. At all. Unless you're talking about a cheap little ICE, as discussed above - those are terrible! Toyota was able in 1998 to make an ICE that stacks up pretty well against one of the best (certainly not THE best) EVs of 2017, No doubt ICE manufacturers can do even better today, and at lower price points. My guess is that EVs will win the larger market share someday, but it's going to be a LONG, hard slog.

The Bolt is under 1/2 the price of a 1998 LS400 when corrected for inflation, the 0-60 is identical, the 0-90 is 0.2 seconds slower for the LS400 290HP DOHC V8.
The weight difference is 350lb, and the performance data at M/T is corrected for altitude on gas engines and allows you to power-brake the launch. 10% difference in weight, but 45% more horsepower, the Lexus should trounce a Bolt at sea level 68°F STP. It doesn't, but on a 90°F day going up the Grapevine, the Bolt's advantage is even greater.

I'm surprised you did not notice the Bolt's transmission is much smoother at all speeds and conditions.

Cars, especially ones with soft suspensions give an illusion of speed that you do not get in tighter suspensions.

In any case, any model Tesla is quicker at all reasonable speed than a 1998 LS400. That is closer to price parity.

 

[ecarfan]

Except that pretty much it is not.

There is one key difference that even ecarfan left out: producing your own propellent is possible with BEV and practically impossible with ICE.
Yes, many won't do it, but many will and some already do.

Thanks for pointing that out! That is indeed a fundamental difference.

My 9.8kW solar system does, on balance over the course of the year, produce all the "fuel" I need for my two Teslas. Right at my house, with zero emissions. That is certainly a fundamental difference compared to an ICE.

Those who want to drill an oil well on their property and build a refinery to fuel their ICE are welcome to do so. Good luck...

 

[phil0909]

I would say it's to preserve range. At normal Autobahn speeds of 80 mph and upwards, the range even of a Tesla (especially an X, but an S as well) drops dramatically. And even though Germany is tiny compared to the US, it is still several hundreds of miles across in all directions, plus Autobahns don't cross the country in straight lines, so distances get even longer.

Funny to think of Teslas limping down the Autobahn at 70 mph. I drove in Germany in the early 1980s, had a rented Opel Kadet, I think. Drove the Autobahns at 98 mph, because the car was not able to reach 99. I'd have been terrified to go as slow as 70, but maybe things are different now.

The charging/range issue really is a nuisance, though. EVs are great commuter cars, if you have a garage to charge in and an ICE for road trips. Which I do, so an EV works fine for me. Once they solve the charging problem and get the costs down, EV's will be good for everyone.

 

[McRat]

Hello McRat. Right you are, I have the '98 model. MotorTrend begs to differ on the speed difference, however. Their test results on both cars actually show that the old Lexus is a couple of tenths of a second quicker to 93.1 mph, but really very close to the Bolt EV for the quarter, 0-60, and passing distances. This despite the fact that the Lexus is a significantly heavier car than the little Bolt.

I did just recently did drive the Lexus again, after about 3 months with the Bolt. I did notice some big differences - much softer suspension, lower ride height, nicer interior. But nothing noticeably different about the engine - still quick, still quiet, very comparable to the EV. The Lexus engine is also seemingly indestructible - it runs like new after all those years and miles, even though I've been quite lazy in maintenance.

Don't get me wrong, EV's certainly have their advantages (and their disadvantages). I like the Bolt, and I expect to like the Model 3 more. But for all the people who think electric motors are vastly superior to ICEs, I'm just not seeing it. At all. Unless you're talking about a cheap little ICE, as discussed above - those are terrible! Toyota was able in 1998 to make an ICE that stacks up pretty well against one of the best (certainly not THE best) EVs of 2017, No doubt ICE manufacturers can do even better today, and at lower price points. My guess is that EVs will win the larger market share someday, but it's going to be a LONG, hard slog.

Just to note, you cannot use the 1/4 mile data for the Bolt. It hits the speed limiter in under a 1/4 mile.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

And you see, that's an entirely different argument than the one talking about going from point A to point B. You purposefully phrased it to point out the similarities while ignoring the differences. I think that qualifies as moving the goalposts.

These are the original goalposts:

A BEV (Tesla or otherwise) otoh is basically still just a normal car, a means to get you from A to B. It can't to anything really different to what an ICE car can.

I am simply agreeing with that. I also agree EV is a paradigm shift in many ways. The rest is arguing semantics.

 

[phil0909]

The Bolt is under 1/2 the price of a 1998 LS400 when corrected for inflation, the 0-60 is identical, the 0-90 is 0.2 seconds slower for the LS400 290HP DOHC V8.
The weight difference is 350lb, and the performance data at M/T is corrected for altitude on gas engines and allows you to power-brake the launch. 10% difference in weight, but 45% more horsepower, the Lexus should trounce a Bolt at sea level 68°F STP. It doesn't, but on a 90°F day going up the Grapevine, the Bolt's advantage is even greater.

I'm surprised you did not notice the Bolt's transmission is much smoother at all speeds and conditions.

Cars, especially ones with soft suspensions give an illusion of speed that you do not get in tighter suspensions.

In any case, any model Tesla is quicker at all reasonable speed than a 1998 LS400. That is closer to price parity.

The Lexus transmission is smooth as silk. Have you ever driven one? Sure, I can feel the shifts if I really pay close attention. And there are certainly slight differences in acceleration, some in Bolt's favor, some in Lexus' favor. My point is that the differences are minor, and barely noticeable to a lot of regular people who just want a nice ride. Today's EVs are getting good, and price competitiveness may be just around the corner. But are EVs ready to dominate the market due to massive superiority? No, not yet.

I do wish the Bolt were more of a luxury car, like my LS. It's pretty spartan, even more so than the Model S. I'm hoping the Model 3 will have a full set of luxury features available, and of course will expect Tesla to charge appropriately for them.

 

[ecarfan]

The charging/range issue really is a nuisance, though. EVs are great commuter cars, if you have a garage to charge in and an ICE for road trips. Which I do, so an EV works fine for me. Once they solve the charging problem and get the costs down, EV's will be good for everyone

After having lived with two Teslas for about 3 years and driven them a total of over 87K miles, my experience is that there is no "charging problem" and EV charging is less of a bother than going to a dirty stinking gas station every week.

Please tell me about your EV charging experience, I'm interested.