Whisky
Member
At this point, the Nissan Leaf is practically free with this incentive. $14k pays for much of the first three or four years of the lease.
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Anyone here anything about $14k rebate going? Tesla salespeople telling me it’s going
- Thread starter Rogerroger60
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- Model X
It was scaled down in past. This rebate only kicked in second half of 2016, after I bought the Leaf. Before it was tiered to the cost, and Tesla could get only $3k.
More likely there will be an adjustment to the program in the next month or so to better position it for the upcoming election. My guess is they will put some sort of cap on the car price to obtain the full $14k and gradually phase out the rebate as the price crosses that threshold.
The Federal government is supposed to announce some sort of National EV plan this quarter though -- so things might actually be better-- until the provincial Libs get ousted in the summer...
I'd chalk up what the sales person was telling you to a combination of pressure tactic and not really knowing the full story.
Duckjybe
Member
With the Ontario government's climate change action plan target of 10% of vehicles sold being electric by 2020, reducing incentives will surely eliminate the possibility of reaching that target from the 1% today. Unless... the Federal government steps up with further incentives which has to happen at some point. The feds need to start putting their money where their mouth is.
I have long argued, with people that say Tesla's shouldn't get incentives, that this isn't about social equity. It's all about carbon emissions reduction. Wealthy people burn more than their fair share of fossil fuels and all classes of cars need incentives at this stage to move people away. Also many people argue that wealthy people buy Tesla's anyways without an incentive. One could argue that there would be more people buying Chevy Bolts without an incentive than Model S's simply because the market is bigger so in the end whether the incentive goes to a lower priced Bolt or higher priced Model S accomplishes the same carbon emissions reduction goal. All long range BEVS need incentives because , currently, they are more expensive than there ICE competitor because they are long range.
I was a reservation holder for the Model X and then the gov. reduced the incentive to $3K and the dollar tanked. I waited it out for over a year and only eventually bought one (the day before the incentive went back up) because I am a Tesla fanatic and couldn't stand driving around in a gas guzzling Ford Expedition MAX any longer. Even without these other factors, with the $14K rebate I would have bought it long ago. Everybody has their limits. which is why incentives will work at any price point.
But of course I am preaching to the choir.
PS. And yes if the PC's get in then the Climate Change Action plan is toast including all incentives. They would rather give out a $500 rebate for snow tires - which may be a declining budget item for them!
I have long argued, with people that say Tesla's shouldn't get incentives, that this isn't about social equity. It's all about carbon emissions reduction. Wealthy people burn more than their fair share of fossil fuels and all classes of cars need incentives at this stage to move people away. Also many people argue that wealthy people buy Tesla's anyways without an incentive. One could argue that there would be more people buying Chevy Bolts without an incentive than Model S's simply because the market is bigger so in the end whether the incentive goes to a lower priced Bolt or higher priced Model S accomplishes the same carbon emissions reduction goal. All long range BEVS need incentives because , currently, they are more expensive than there ICE competitor because they are long range.
I was a reservation holder for the Model X and then the gov. reduced the incentive to $3K and the dollar tanked. I waited it out for over a year and only eventually bought one (the day before the incentive went back up) because I am a Tesla fanatic and couldn't stand driving around in a gas guzzling Ford Expedition MAX any longer. Even without these other factors, with the $14K rebate I would have bought it long ago. Everybody has their limits. which is why incentives will work at any price point.
But of course I am preaching to the choir.
PS. And yes if the PC's get in then the Climate Change Action plan is toast including all incentives. They would rather give out a $500 rebate for snow tires - which may be a declining budget item for them!
PS. And yes if the PC's get in then the Climate Change Action plan is toast including all incentives. They would rather give out a $500 rebate for snow tires - which may be a declining budget item for them!
HAH! I see what you did there. Well played sir...
Duckjybe
Member
Similar numbers from Mathew Klippenstein here. Hit over 1% the last few months for all of Canada.
Canadian EV sales
Thanks for posting - that is extremely comprehensive data. But he doesn't appear to have any data for the Tesla Roadster! Sure it only sold about 50 in Canada but several of the other vehicles in his spreadsheet are around that level.
aslam
Member
You may already know this but BC’s EV incentive program (brought in by the previous centre-right government) has had a 77k MSRP cap on their EV program for a while. It has been my secret hope that the new NDP/Green coalition gov would lift this to encourage more adoption (preferably before I take delivery of my MS 75D in March), but I know it’s probably just a pipe dream. Nonetheless, I wouldn’t be surprised if Ontario puts in a cap like BC has.
But I’m curious about the comment from @Nikkin that the Federal Gov will put some sort of national EV incentive in. Where did you hear this?
But I’m curious about the comment from @Nikkin that the Federal Gov will put some sort of national EV incentive in. Where did you hear this?
Duckjybe
Member
We had that cap in Ontario before and I lobbied to get it removed as it is counterproductive.
Maybe you mean my comment as well. It is mostly common sense speculation on my part. The feds have said they will come up with a plan by end of 2018. Also, the Ontario Climate Change Action Plan specifically states that the prov. would work with feds to eliminate/reduce HST on EV’s. Nothing is for sure but something has got to happen otherwise carbon emissions reduction goals won’t be met.
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To be honest, That is probably the best way to force adoption, and it fills the government's coffers vs emptying them. It won't happen though because raising taxes gets governments ousted, while boutique tax breaks and incentives keeps them in power.
@aslam I remember reading some press release earlier last year that spoke to the governments Federal climate change action plan having a position on electrification of vehicles and it mentioned several things they were considering:
- Elimination of federal portion of HST on EV sales
- Preferential to free over night home charging for the first 3-4 years for EV owners
- Some sort of rebate similar to provincial incentives
I think Norway's leadership in this area will be held as an example and we'll see some of the ideas they used introduced in Canada. Should be interesting to see!
The difference between Norway and Canada is that I am pretty sure that Norway doesn't have a federal system where Transportation is, for the most part, administered by the provinces. We debated on here before whether this should be done on the provincial or federal level but the provinces with the highest incentives, especially Quebec, have the highest EV penetration. Those are also the provinces with the most people and the ones that tend to have the EV infrastructure, including stuff like Tesla stores and service centres, so it is hard to say that only incentives drive adoption. The outlier is Alberta but it is somewhat unique in that it is the heart of the oil industry and EV adoption is less useful in terms of GHG reduction as you are substituting coal for gasoline as the energy source. At least in provinces like QC, ON and BC a very large proportion of the electricity generation does not emit GHG.
Even on a federal level if the goal is to reduce GHGs then you should have the highest rebates in provinces with the least carbon-intensive grids. A Tesla in Quebec saves much more GHG emissions than a Tesla in Alberta so shouldn't Canada's incentives reflect that? Or is that getting too granular and cute?
By the way, if we eliminate all ICE vehicles then how do governments make up for the lost revenue coming from gasoline taxes? They make some HST from electricity but the overall revenue will fall a lot. Does that mean higher income taxes? The federal government collects about $8B/ year from taxes on fuels out of total revenue of about $300B.
Duckjybe
Member
The Montreal Institute they reference is the Quebec Fraser Institute equivalent so you know what their agenda is. Of course they are going to make subsidies look bad. They apparently have been funded by Koch brothers in the past.
At this point in time I think we need both a carbon tax and subsidies and then phase out subsidies over time. For example it’s not fair to keep punishing gas guzzling truck owners when there are no alternatives right now. Subsidies to benefit EV manufacturers will help them with R&D to get new pickup models on the road quicker. It’s better to have the funds being deployed for good use than ending up in the government pocket for who knows what use.
Phillip L
Gas Passer
How about a tax on kms driven. When you renew your license in Ontario we have to note the odometer reading. More you drive, more you pay in tax, which is essentially what the gasoline tax does? More gasoline you buy, more tax you pay.
sakimano
Active Member
personally I think the $14,000 rebate is ridiculous. I'm not sure the taxpayers are getting their money's worth on that, funding the purchase of electric cars for 1% of the cars on the road....and in the case of teslas, those purchasers happen to largely be members of the other '1%' group that is so roundly vilified for succeeding. People buying $130,000 cars need government assistance? huh?
Electric cars don't work yet, financially. The government making them work by taking my neighbour's tax dollars and giving them to me for buying a Tesla is bonkers. Add to this the other considerable subsidies that Tesla receives at a corporate level and you've got a system of automotive transportation that is immensely expensive and governments all over are bending over backwards to make it work. I don't get that. I get the shift from fossil fuels but these are also governments that are largely running massive defecits. You can't have everything right away. Sometimes you have to save up before you get to do what you want. In the government's case, perhaps they should focus on other areas of waste before doling out too many subsidies.
I bought one because I think it's a better mousetrap. It's faster than petrol cars, it's quieter than petrol cars and the concept of filling up in my garage is appealing. The car is also beautiful, it drives nicely and as I tell everyone...it's a good car first, and it's electric second. However, I don't think I'm saving the world or anything. I think we're about 20 years away from truly clean energy actually powering these cars. I don't have blinders on right now and think it's powered by daisy petals and cotton balls. Among other sources, the car is powered by natural gas powerplants, nuclear powerplants and when I cross the border, it's powered by coal fired power plants...none of these are pretty or green. My neighbour being forced to subsidize me buying one makes no sense.
Electric cars don't work yet, financially. The government making them work by taking my neighbour's tax dollars and giving them to me for buying a Tesla is bonkers. Add to this the other considerable subsidies that Tesla receives at a corporate level and you've got a system of automotive transportation that is immensely expensive and governments all over are bending over backwards to make it work. I don't get that. I get the shift from fossil fuels but these are also governments that are largely running massive defecits. You can't have everything right away. Sometimes you have to save up before you get to do what you want. In the government's case, perhaps they should focus on other areas of waste before doling out too many subsidies.
I bought one because I think it's a better mousetrap. It's faster than petrol cars, it's quieter than petrol cars and the concept of filling up in my garage is appealing. The car is also beautiful, it drives nicely and as I tell everyone...it's a good car first, and it's electric second. However, I don't think I'm saving the world or anything. I think we're about 20 years away from truly clean energy actually powering these cars. I don't have blinders on right now and think it's powered by daisy petals and cotton balls. Among other sources, the car is powered by natural gas powerplants, nuclear powerplants and when I cross the border, it's powered by coal fired power plants...none of these are pretty or green. My neighbour being forced to subsidize me buying one makes no sense.
@sakimano - What you say makes a lot of sense. The only thing I would take issue with is this "car is powered by natural gas powerplants, nuclear powerplants". Natural gas is now pretty low in terms of energy sources in Ontario, especially in the middle of the night when you are (likely) charging your car. It is primarily fueled by nukes and hydro. But the last nuke was built decades ago and would be running even if Elon and Tesla never came along so you can't blame electric cars for them. Solar is artificially low on this list as much of it is distributed and the IESO doesn't have good data on it. How do they know that I produced 13 MWh in 2016 from my home's solar panels (unless they are guessing from installed capacity - but I doubt that)?
2016 Ontario Output
2016 Ontario Output
sakimano
Active Member
All good information, however let's remember, I wasn't blaming electric cars or talking just about ontario
. I was just saying when we look, generally at how we're charging the car and the source of the energy, it's not really all that clean. Certainly Ontario is moving along but look across the country and across the border...or if you're brave, have a look in Asia etc. One day we'll see. It's still early.Similar threads
