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Arguments about binning, hub sizes, and other speculation

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Knightshade

Well-Known Member
Jul 31, 2017
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2- the PD3- is software limited, and I hope is not hardware limited with the same hardware as the AWD because that is not what they said when I bought it.

The AWD, P3D-, and P3D+ are all exactly the same hardware as far as power train goes (and repeatedly confirmed by not just the actual Tesla parts catalog but also by owners taking pictures of part numbers on delivered cars)

An AWD can be turned into a P3D- with a software update (as happened to several folks who ordered a P3D-, got an AWD at delivery, and had that "corrected" via software at delivery time)

The P3D+ has some suspension/brake/tire differences from AWD, but that's it.
 
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The AWD, P3D-, and P3D+ are all exactly the same hardware as far as power train goes (and repeatedly confirmed by not just the actual Tesla parts catalog but also by owners taking pictures of part numbers on delivered cars)

An AWD can be turned into a P3D- with a software update (as happened to several folks who ordered a P3D-, got an AWD at delivery, and had that "corrected" via software at delivery time)

The P3D+ has some suspension/brake/tire differences from AWD, but that's it.

Plus front hubs...
 
Still can’t dispute that those AWDs that were flashed to performance were a special batch that met a higher spec. We will never really know only conjecture.

The AWD, P3D-, and P3D+ are all exactly the same hardware as far as power train goes (and repeatedly confirmed by not just the actual Tesla parts catalog but also by owners taking pictures of part numbers on delivered cars)

An AWD can be turned into a P3D- with a software update (as happened to several folks who ordered a P3D-, got an AWD at delivery, and had that "corrected" via software at delivery time)

The P3D+ has some suspension/brake/tire differences from AWD, but that's it.
 
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Still can’t dispute that those AWDs that were flashed to performance were a special batch that met a higher spec. We will never really know only conjecture.

I've asked Tesla a couple times if I could upgrade my AWD to a P3D-. The first response when I used the contact option in my Tesla account was just that I should contact a local delivery center for anything like that. I blew it off, but a few months later actually did contact my delivery center. Their first response was merely "what is your VIN?" I got super excited thinking maybe it would actually be possible, but they eventually came back saying that this is not an option that is offered. Makes you wonder. I hold out a (very) little hope it could still be an option someday.
 
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Still can’t dispute that those AWDs that were flashed to performance were a special batch that met a higher spec. We will never really know only conjecture.


No, it's really not conjecture.

The actual Tesla parts catalog- and Tesla owners of all versions of the 3 taking pics of their actual drive units part numbers and posting in several threads here, all confirm the fact that all LR Model 3s (and at least the 2018 MRs too) got the exact same drive units
 
No, it's really not conjecture.

The actual Tesla parts catalog- and Tesla owners of all versions of the 3 taking pics of their actual drive units part numbers and posting in several threads here, all confirm the fact that all LR Model 3s (and at least the 2018 MRs too) got the exact same drive units


Sure. But some were burned in/binned. Could they take any drive unit and burn it in? Sure could.
 
It doesn’t make sense to bin motors and create a fork that can affect vehicle production.

Every motor made should be P spec no matter what car it goes on.
True but that's not how binning works. When you bin a product all units are made to the same standards.

The binning process occurs during QA testing where the company discovers which manufactured motors can operate at a higher spec than others. This is because there are inherent defects introduced in the manufacturing process itself that can't be overcome. These defects affect the overall performance of the motor that is only discovered during testing. If a detect is too great the motor is trashed but most defects aren't so bad as to trash the unit. So instead you create tiers of tested performance (aka bins).

So one motor that performs to the ideal standard gets binned and put in a P3D. Another identical motor may show defects but still passes the basic operational standard and gets put in an AWD or RWD.

The part numbers will still all be the same.
 
Absolutely. Same part numbers doesn’t mean this isn’t a given. It could be differentiated at the serial number level.

This is true. As the owner of a P3D- that had a Monroney sticker that said "AWD" instead of "Performance" on delivery day (until my Delivery Agent went back inside and printed out a "Performance" Monroney), I've followed this issue very closely and I've not seen a shred of evidence that the motors/inverters are not binned as Elon claimed. I don't care one way or the other because obviously we have not been seeing Performance motor failures which would be the case if we had unbinned motors/inverters and not all of them were good enough.

However, as an academic excercise, I'm amazed how many people claim (as a fact) that there is no binning of motors without so much as shred of evidence to prove it. The part # does not prove it because they are all made to the same spec, any binning would be done for the motor/inverter assembly and recorded in Tesla's database. For versatility in production the AWD and P3D-'s could be made all together and they could be "optioned" as Performance as necessary by consulting the database of which ones could go either way.

If the motors/inverters were binned, there would be some AWD out there that meet Tesla's spec for a Performance model. However, they can't upgrade these after the fact because that would cause an uproar from those AWD owners who paid the same amount of money as another AWD owner who could be upgraded to P3D, while they were told that, due to the luck of the draw, they can't be upgraded. So the only solution would be to lock in the difference between AWD and P3D at the time of sale.

If, on the otherhand, all AWD's meet the spec for Performance, Tesla would be stupid not to let AWD owners upgrade after the fact. It's free money. And we all know Tesla could use a nice shot of that right now. The fact that they have never attempted to monetize this lucrative stream of revenue leans heavily in favor of the motors having been binned.
 
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This is true. As the owner of a P3D- that had a Monroney sticker that said "AWD" instead of "Performance" on delivery day (until my Delivery Agent went back inside and printed out a "Performance" Monroney), I've followed this issue very closely and I've not seen a shred of evidence that the motors/inverters are not binned as Elon claimed


You mean besides the fact you got an AWD car that was obviously flashed to P3D- after the sticker was printed?

The only thing there's actually no evidence of is binning

Doing it by serial #, rather than part #, is insane from a supply chain, logistics, and repair perspective.

However, as an academic excercise, I'm amazed how many people claim (as a fact) that there is no binning of motors without so much as shred of evidence to prove it. The part # does not prove it because they are all made to the same spec, any binning would be done for the motor/inverter assembly and recorded in Tesla's database.

Uh, the motor/inverter assembly is called the drive unit.

They're all exactly the same part in the catalog.

The thing the shop would order a replacement part from.

Again, any actual evidence we have says no binning.


If, on the otherhand, all AWD's meet the spec for Performance, Tesla would be stupid not to let AWD owners upgrade after the fact. It's free money.

Except for the potential to kill P sales.

And even worse- to potentially kill new model P sales because everyone would be trained to expect to be able to unlock P later on the Y and future cars. That's the big problem.
 
You mean besides the fact you got an AWD car that was obviously flashed to P3D- after the sticker was printed?

I'm sorry but no that's not how it happened. The car was already converted to a P3D because it had the red line under the "Dual Motor" on the center screen. The Delivery Specialist had neglected to print the correct monroney sticker until I asked him to do so.

The only thing there's actually no evidence of is binning

I've never claimed there was any evidence of binning. It appears you are the only one claiming as a fact things that you can't support with hard evidence.


Doing it by serial #, rather than part #, is insane from a supply chain, logistics, and repair perspective.

I never said the production ramp was not insane. Fortunately, computers can handle this without too much trouble.


Uh, the motor/inverter assembly is called the drive unit.

I know.

They're all exactly the same part in the catalog.
The thing the shop would order a replacement part from.

When ordering a drive unit for a Performance model, which is fortunately very rare on this model, it may be necessary to request one that bins out for a Performance model. Remember, the ramp was very chaotic.

Again, any actual evidence we have says no binning.

You haven't presented any actual evidence that the motors are not binned. If you think the part number is conclusive, I've got some beautiful retirement land to sell you in Florida.

Except for the potential to kill P sales.

And even worse- to potentially kill new model P sales because everyone would be trained to expect to be able to unlock P later on the Y and future cars. That's the big problem.

It's no different than the way Tesla markets pretty much all their software upgrades (AutoPilot, Full Self Driving, etc). They can charge more for the upgrade after the sale (or not). I don't see how that kills sales of the Performance. If you want it and can afford it at the time of purchase you're going to buy a Performance so you can start driving a Performance.

If you come up with any actual evidence that the motors were not binned, let me know. Until then, I'm sticking with the rational ones who know that an assumption does not amount to proof.
 
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I've never claimed there was any evidence of binning. It appears you are the only one claiming as a fact things that you can't support with hard evidence.

The parts catalog is hard evidence.

The PNs on every version of the Model 3 DUs matching every other version is hard evidence.

The fact numerous folks on here got AWD cars flashed to P3D- cars on the lot is hard evidence.

Literally every bit of hard evidence we have is that DUs are identical across Model 3s (at least across LR models, and the early MR ones)



I never said the production ramp was not insane. Fortunately, computers can handle this without too much trouble.

But it makes no sense for them to.

Binning by PN (like chipmakers, or, pretty much anybody else in the world that bins) is easy, straightforward, and makes off-shelf inventory confusion impossible.

There's no benefit to not doing that, and significant downside to not doing it.

It significantly increases risk a service center- especially as Tesla has said they're ramping up local stocking of parts- puts the wrong part in the car if you have 2 units with the same part number that are functionally different

Hell Tesla even revs the PN when they make a minor change to the same part for the same car. If they had anything set up to instead do inventory by SN, why would they bother doing that?

It's again making up a fantasy that there's 0 evidence of, to try and explain away all the hard evidence that a second fantasy does not exist.



When ordering a drive unit for a Performance model, which is fortunately very rare on this model, it may be necessary to request one that bins out for a Performance model.

Which would be hard since every bit of evidence we have says there's only 1 drive unit in all types of model 3s.


You haven't presented any actual evidence that the motors are not binned.

I mean, again, except for a lot of actual evidence like Teslas own parts catalog.

It's not like there's even an * there reminding the parts dept to "use the sooper double top secret serial # system whose existence makes no sense to check for BINNING when ordering" or anything.


If you think the part number is conclusive, I've got some beautiful retirement land to sell you in Florida.

If you think that's a convincing argument I've got a bridge for sale you can move to it :)

I've cited all the actual facts we have evidence of... your entire counter argument is "Nu uh! there could be a fictional system there's 0 evidence of and that makes no sense, that would make your evidence less compelling!"

I mean... it could be aliens too, right?



It's no different than the way Tesla markets pretty much all their software upgrades (AutoPilot, Full Self Driving, etc). They can charge more for the upgrade after the sale (or not). I don't see how that kills sales of the Performance.


This argument makes even less sense than the imaginary binning-but-using-the-same-PN system.

Other than this weird price-cut thing they've already reversed, the entire history of Tesla has been to encourage you to spend on options at time of purchase. They want your money up front.

Moreover the entire Model 3 ramp showed us they want to sell the most expensive version of the car ahead of any other version.

So anything that would make a customer who is considering the P version think "Eh, I'll get the cheap version, and I can "turn it into" a performance later...." is a loser for Tesla.





If you want it and can afford it at the time of purchase you're going to buy a Performance so you can start driving a Performance.

Nope.

There's TONS of threads on here from buyers who were unsure if they should go for the P or not...were on the fence... and tons of people who fell on both sides of it.

Heck a ton of them were this exact argument

Buyer: Should I get the P, or should I get an AWD with EAP/FSD? I can't afford both right now....

Forums: Get the P! You can add software later but not the magic fairy dust motor!

Buyer: Good point!



But if suddenly everyone knows you CAN add the actually-exactly-the-same motors software later... those sales dry right up.

If you come up with any actual evidence that the motors were not binned, let me know.

I did.

Literally every bit of evidence that exists.

When you come up with any they are you let me know.


Until then, I'm sticking with the rational ones who know that an assumption does not amount to proof.

You're the one assuming 100% of actual evidence doesn't actually mean anything and you're gonna stick with pretending there's some imaginary nonsensical inventory system that somehow explains it all away.

So I agree one side is being rational and one isn't, just that you might be confused on which side that is.
 
You're the one assuming 100% of actual evidence doesn't actually mean anything and you're gonna stick with pretending there's some imaginary nonsensical inventory system that somehow explains it all away.

This is what you don't seem to get: I'm not willing to jump to the conclusion that they definitely aren't binned based only on circumstantial evidence. You're the one claiming to know for a fact that they are not, but when I ask you how you know the best you can do is to say that Tesla did not create a seperate part number for binned motors. I've got news for you, that is not proof they are not binned. It could be that Tesla found it cheaper to burn in the motors/electronics once they were already installed in the chassis and wired up. This could allow them to burn in more than just the motors and with all the dependent parts in-circuit. That would preclude a seperate part number.

The fact is, we know very little about how these cars are built because the employees sign non-disclosure agreements. And, unlike you, I'm not willing to state something is a fact just because it seems reasonable or likely.
 
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This is what you don't seem to get: I'm not willing to jump to the conclusion that they definitely aren't binned based only on circumstantial evidence.


The fact every bit if info we have on both their inventory system, parts catalog, and physical markings on the actual production DUs confirms there's no binning.

That's hardly "circumstantial"

Especially in the face of zero evidence of any kind than binning is happening.


You're the one claiming to know for a fact that they are not, but when I ask you how you know the best you can do is to say that Tesla did not create a seperate part number for binned motors. I've got news for you, that is not proof they are not binned.

You can't really prove a negative. There's literally nothing I could provide that would be good enough for you if you're willing to make up increasingly insane theories about how they COULD BE binning despite 100% of evidence showing they're not.


It could be that Tesla found it cheaper to burn in the motors/electronics once they were already installed in the chassis and wired up. This could allow them to burn in more than just the motors and with all the dependent parts in-circuit. That would preclude a seperate part number.

I mean- it wouldn't though. Because it'd make 0 sense for replacement parts.

It'd also make 0 sense to only test the DU for P after it's in the car because it'd be a TON of wasted labor having installed, then needing to replace, a P motor that didn't make the cut. (if your theory is they only "flash" it as a P after the fact that makes even LESS sense, given they'd then need to swap the suspension, hubs, and other parts if it fails the P test).


See again needing increasingly insane, unfounded, theories to explain how they COULD BE binned despite all evidence to the contrary.


Not a single suggestion you've made to dispute all the actual evidence makes any sense. Every one makes the entire system significantly more complex, expensive, and prone to error- in exchange for no benefit at all except a way to deny the facts.



(quick note- since you used "burn in" there.... burn in and binning are totally different things... there's no reason they can't do "double the burn in" on P cars...simply by leaving the assembled ones on the test system twice as long. That wouldn't change the fact the DU they're testing is identical to the ones going into AWD (and RWD for rear DUs) cars....and it wouldn't really offer any benefit to anyone at all since the motors are expected to run for a million miles anyway, so it'd be a huge waste, but totally doable.... Binning is quite different though, it's testing them for output and separating them based on the results- this happens a lot in things like CPUs- but then they give them different PNs because not doing so is insane from a supply chain/MFG/parts/inventory/warranty perspective)
 
that's part of the suspension. See parts catalog here-

https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/systemGroups/47407
When people say "some" suspension parts
that's part of the suspension. See parts catalog here-

https://epc.teslamotors.com/#/systemGroups/47407
OMG. That is not the point. It was thought that it was an easy change, calipers/discs/shocks and springs are normally replaced over time, and are part of the maintenance of a car. Hubs are difficult to replace and very expensive. So to the point, Tesla will not convert a P3D- to PUP. They said it to me in the SC. And if you are stubborn enough, yes you will have to replace the front hubs eventually due to wear out, at least the ball bearings. OMG ("roll eyes")