Audi etron in person, disappointing?

[dhanson865]

This is exactly the case. Audi prevents you from charging to the true 100% SOC. This allows them to charge faster up to the user limit and also allows them to hide degradation by moving the user limit so that the usable kWh is constant as the car ages through the warranty period. Beyond the warranty, who knows what will happen. I'm not sure most automakers care what happens beyond that. VW certainly didn't care that my Passat V6 30V consumed 3qt/5000miles from new. They would not do anything about it under warranty until the engine oil consumption was 1qt/1000miles. They were very smart. The oil consumption didn't kill the first catalytic converter until it was 5000 miles outside the emissions warranty.

every car manufacturer does that. If you use Leafspy on a Nissan Leaf you'll see the charge complete around 92-95% but the dash will say 100%. Tesla has some amount hidden at the top of the pack, every one does.

I'm not sure why you think Audi is the first car company in the world to ever think of reserving some at the top of the pack.

 

[miimura]

every car manufacturer does that. If you use Leafspy on a Nissan Leaf you'll see the charge complete around 92-95% but the dash will say 100%. Tesla has some amount hidden at the top of the pack, every one does.

I'm not sure why you think Audi is the first car company in the world to ever think of reserving some at the top of the pack.

Audi is reserving a significantly and notably greater amount than Tesla does. The abrupt stop at a relatively high charging power makes this clear.

 

[dhanson865]

Audi is reserving a significantly and notably greater amount than Tesla does. The abrupt stop at a relatively high charging power makes this clear.

Audi is reserving a vaguely and undocumented amount that you say is greater.

Can you document the amount of kWh in reserve on both brands of cars? Heck I'll even give you an out on the Tesla side as we have a thread here on TMC that documents that reasonably well. Can you provide a similar level of documentation for Audi battery packs?

 

[wooter]

I can't find the relevant reference, but the Wikipedia page for the e-tron claims a 84kWh usable capacity.

Audi e-tron (2018) - Wikipedia

 

[30seconds]

Well, as someone who dislikes SUVs in general I don't disagree. But ground clearance, high seating position and large cargo hatch are the main reasons why SUVs are so popular, and higher weight and worse aerodynamics in comparison to a sedan are an unavoidable consequence of building higher cars requiring more body material. I don't think anyone seriously interested in the Etron (or a Model X for that matter) would compare it with a Model 3.

So having shorter range and worse performance than the much larger, 3 row, Model X is because people prefer the e-tron’s design?

Sure.

 

[Eno Deb]

So having shorter range and worse performance than the much larger, 3 row, Model X is because people prefer the e-tron’s design?

Sure.

Oh, Tesla absolutely has an efficiency advantage. But it is far less pronounced than if the Audi is compared to the Model 3.

 

[arnis]

every car manufacturer does that. If you use Leafspy on a Nissan Leaf you'll see the charge complete around 92-95% but the dash will say 100%. Tesla has some amount hidden at the top of the pack, every one does.

I'm not sure why you think Audi is the first car company in the world to ever think of reserving some at the top of the pack.

Not true. Tesla's 100% is actually 100%. Even though cells can easily be charged above 100%, 100% is "industry accepted" level. Which is 4.2V for regular Li-ion cells. And 100% is 4.2V on Tesla. At least on S/X.

e-tron has significant limit at upper end. This can be verified by the fact that charging speed between 99% and 100% is really high.
I also heard about those buffers (in percents) but forgot where.

 

[Brando]

Except it doesn't

Texas tries to prevent Tesla from selling in Texas. And even trying to stop servicing in Texas.
I suspect most of you already know this. Yet another reason Tesla gets so much "bad" press.

Tesla's abrupt strategy shift to online-only sales model leaves Texas dealership push in question

Texas is trying to block Tesla from even servicing its cars in direct sale battle with car dealers

 

[miimura]

Audi is reserving a vaguely and undocumented amount that you say is greater.

Can you document the amount of kWh in reserve on both brands of cars? Heck I'll even give you an out on the Tesla side as we have a thread here on TMC that documents that reasonably well. Can you provide a similar level of documentation for Audi battery packs?

Obviously I don't have reliable figures for exactly how much of a buffer Audi has at the top end of their pack. The recent Electrek podcast says that Audi told them 8% reserve at the bottom and 4% at the top. Maybe you can tell us how that compares to the TMC documented figures.

So, let's talk about how Audi can have DC fast charging that tapers to 50kW then abruptly stops. One thing I just thought of is what I will call compensation for internal resistance. When you charge a battery, the voltage at the cell terminal is higher than the resting voltage at the same SOC. The more current you are putting into the cell, the higher that voltage difference is. Lithium ion batteries are usually charged with Constant Current, then Constant Voltage. Each cell has an absolute maximum voltage and a maximum voltage that is set by the vehicle manufacturer for longer life. If you use the CV charge mode and never, ever violate the lower maximum voltage set by the manufacturer, the charge profile will taper down to nearly nothing before stopping at the 100% usable SOC. On the other hand, if you know the internal resistance of the cells, you know how much the voltage rises for a given current. If the manufacturer is willing to charge with a higher CV charge voltage than resting voltage, then you can charge faster right up to the 100% usable SOC point. I think this is a reasonable explanation for the Audi charging behavior, but I don't know what effect it will have on battery degradation or other measures of pack longevity.

 

[PrGrPa]

The eTron seems like an OK electric Audi. If you like buttons, switches, and VAG dealerships it’ll be fine. And it is nice to have some competition for Tesla other than the iPace at the upper end of prices.

Be aware that VAG believes the future isn’t BEVs but fuel cells. While it seems almost conspiratorial, you can see that having marketed diesels on being able to do the length of Britain on a tankful that it’ll be an easy switch to say ‘look at how far you can go on one fill of hydrogen’. Though you might need that range to find another filling station.

 

[mtndrew1]

About a week ago I saved a group of every eTron with photos on cars.com in the US. This was a group of 28 cars definitely on the ground and ready for sale. Of these cars, 27 remain available today.

It’s very early but if there were big demand for this car in the US I would expect them to be flying off the shelves. This might be the next I-Pace as far as sales go.

 

[Valore]

About a week ago I saved a group of every eTron with photos on cars.com in the US. This was a group of 28 cars definitely on the ground and ready for sale. Of these cars, 27 remain available today.

It’s very early but if there were big demand for this car in the US I would expect them to be flying off the shelves. This might be the next I-Pace as far as sales go.

This car isn't available in the US yet, so no spare parts available, probably no service, warranty, and whatnot.
I wouldn't buy a grey import car either.

In Europe, they are selling quite OK, a lot better than Model S and Model X combined.

 

[banned-66611]

The Turd appeals to Audi drivers looking for a "king of the road" repmobile. It's as much a status symbol as anything. Of course it's selling well.

 

[wooter]

In Europe, they are selling quite OK, a lot better than Model S and Model X combined.

Wait, what?

Total planned production would be less than Model S and X combined, and deliveries have just started. So there's no way that they're outperforming S and X.

 

[banned-66611]

Wait, what?

Total planned production would be less than Model S and X combined, and deliveries have just started. So there's no way that they're outperforming S and X.

Planned production for Europe or the whole world? And like Tesla, Audi takes pre-orders for cars being delivered later.

 

[Valore]

Wait, what?

Total planned production would be less than Model S and X combined, and deliveries have just started. So there's no way that they're outperforming S and X.

YTD Audi E-Tron sold 2609 until March 2019, Model S only sold 1605 YTD (March 2018 to March 2019). Model X is not even top 20 anymore.

Yeah, E-Tron currently outperforming Model S and X combined in sales.

EV wonderland Norway is the same.
E-Tron sales 1169 YTD, Model S 292 and Model X 700.
Only 68 Model X and 23 Model S sold in April 2019, old Volkswagen E-Golf best selling EV with 911 sales, Tesla sales have tanked.

 

[mtndrew1]

This car isn't available in the US yet, so no spare parts available, probably no service, warranty, and whatnot.
I wouldn't buy a grey import car either.

In Europe, they are selling quite OK, a lot better than Model S and Model X combined.

It is indeed available in the US and they’re in (limited) stock at dealers.

Audi sold 253 eTrons in the US last month.

Monthly Plug-In EV Sales Scorecard

 

[VQTRVA]

I finally got a chance to see one, I honestly am not sure why it gets all the hype. Maybe it is the badge, maybe it is the drivetrain? Honestly, the interior is not much different a standard Audi SUV. The car is too small to be a family car, it feels like one of those little Range Rover to me.

I saw one in February @ a regional car show.
They were the only high end EV that was present at the show & did capture some eyeballs & favorable feedback.

But in the absence of any other higher end EV marques - there wasn't a representative comparison of what are all the varying technologies each marque is portraying.

So the only people saw there - in a vacuum - is a design that is a derivative of a Q7/Q5 & an interior that is not too unfamiliar from what Audi buyers are used to.
In other words, Mercedes & obviously Tesla weren't there to present their own interpretations of performance, efficiency & user interface.

So average & prospective EV buyers don't know what is possible, what is different & what is clearly a better way.

 

[miimura]

Audi e-Tron is a new product at the beginning of its life cycle. Model S and X are mature products due for update. It is not at all surprising that European customers are taking more of the new product right now. However, after the rumored interior and battery pack upgrades are available on the S and X, I would expect sales to increase.

 

[mtndrew1]

Audi e-Tron is a new product at the beginning of its life cycle. Model S and X are mature products due for update. It is not at all surprising that European customers are taking more of the new product right now. However, after the rumored interior and battery pack upgrades are available on the S and X, I would expect sales to increase.

Another factor is that the X is three inches wider and five inches longer than the eTron and those are traits not welcome in Europe. The CCS network in Europe is extensive but requires an adapter to work with a new S/X. The CCS thing will probably be rectified in the update but Tesla’s supercharger network is perhaps not as dramatic a selling point in EU as it is in NA.

Distances covered are generally shorter than NA as well; 4,000 km one-way trips are probably not a thing on the continent.

These characteristics make the Model 3 and Y likely to cannibalize S/X sales in EU in a way they don’t in NA. It also makes the eTron more compelling there than in the US.