Aussie queues this long weekend

[dronus]

On the Vic Hume Hwy, the V2 supercharger site at Euroa seems to fill up on many weekends during the ski season, not just holiday weekends, and it has only 6 bays that slow to about 66kW when sharing. Ironically, the 2x Chargefox 350kW at the Shell just 2km the other side of the highway seems to have lower utilisation despite being faster and cheaper (I guess Tesla drivers tend to use the suggested Nav as someone suggested - last time I was there all 6 Teslas were going south so they all drove past the empty Chargefox 350's, crossed the highway and drove a couple of km to share 66kW each).

BP to their credit have put in 8 stalls across 2 sites at Glenrowan (inc 1 Chademo), although these seem to be 100kW for 1 vehicle down to 75kW when shared. Also 2x Evie 350kW at Avenel about 30km south but 1 of those is usually out of service and it's kind of the last chance when heading back to Melbourne apart from slow singles at Wallan and Broadford, so hard to rely on.

I'm not sure if a major upgrade to the grid supply would be required to upgrade Euroa to V3, but it may not require significant planning/construction works. It would probably help and be cheaper than building a new site. I'm aware of a new supercharger site planned in Benalla, but it'll be a more annoying detour off the highway to get to.

I love visiting those towns when I come over to holiday from Adelaide!.
I’m usually not in a hurry, am patient and don’t expect anything which for me seems to lead to more relaxing adventures! I don’t mind detouring off a boring highway to visit those beautiful country Victorian towns, usually I’ll stop in and support local businesses which I’m sure they like, at the expense of my belly when there is a bakery involved!
Then again I’m pretty chilled out, and just appreciate and am thankful for the chance to be able to travel, so I feel no entitlement for anything

 

[moa999]

I'm not sure if a major upgrade to the grid supply would be required to upgrade Euroa to V3, but it may not require significant planning/construction works

Basically this.
The supply to a V2 is sized around peak loads.

So the 8 V2 at Gundagai is fed by a 500kVA pole transformer (close enough to 500kW).

To upgrade the site to 8 V3s you probably need 1.5MW, and afaik you'd also need to replace all the main rectification units and underground wiring.

Simply not worth it.. I don't believe even in the US Tesla had upgraded V2s. What they have done is added V3 units to an existing V2 site which might be doable in some areas.

Albeit at least in NSW I think the Govt funding required it to be a new site so none of the funded sites are expansions, and that's probably good for diversity of power in case of local failures as well.

But scaling to meet the peaks is problematic. We see the same at highway petrol stations where you have queues ... and the petrol companies need to invest in petrol tankers that only get used a few days a year.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

EV is not a mainstream thing yet, but it is being sold as it is to people. Infrastructure is not there or anywhere close yet. Single stall 50kw chargers (most maxing at 45kw or so) are all you have through most of Victoria as an example, and they are broken or glitching all the time.

Agreed.

The Tesla SC infrastructure pretty much only exists for those travelling the main routes between a few select capital cities (and the ski fields). Bad luck if that is not your planned route. The rest of the country is ignored.

The third party and government subsidised chargers are woefully inadequate for the current and predicted EV-uptake. The Tesla is already one of the biggest selling cars in the Australian market. I see a complete mess on the horizon. As I said earlier, I can't believe they are still planning and building single-stall 50kW chargers around the place. That's great for 1 car stopping for lunch. The 2nd car that arrives will just have to wait an hour or so. The third and fourth?

I also own a Ford Ranger (I need to), so I can choose my vehicle for the task. But most people can't or don't want to own multiple vehicles.

There is no way my wife will own an EV until she knows she can charge it reliably whenever and wherever she goes (as she can with her current ICE car). It's not an unreasonable expectation for those who aren't keen on working with emerging technology like possibly many on this forum are.

However, it's not emerging technology any more - it's well and truly here. Those building the infrastructure don't seem to get that. Trouble is - who is responsible for building the infrastructure? Tesla recognised that it needed to build some infrastructure or nobody would buy its vehicles. It has plenty of infrastructure in US/Europe/Asia, but Australia with its relatively low sales and massively low population density misses out. Other private companies are not going to plan ahead and build to cater for the expected uptake without some sort of ROI. That only leaves governments, who, as usual, will hopelessly underdeliver unless it's a clear vote winner.

 

[Max Spaghetti]

So the 8 V2 at Gundagai is fed by a 500kVA pole transformer (close enough to 500kW).

Slightly off-topic with regards to superchargers, but the Chargefox at Euroa Shell is quite fascinating in that I believe the entire site is still fed by the existing 500kVa (service station plus about half a dozen food outlets), and they still managed to piggy-back 2x 350kW and 2x 50kW DCFC's onto it. They achieved this by installing a large (273kWh) buffer battery and 200kW solar array. I don't know what the real world charging rates achieved are when in constant (queued-up) use, however.

Chargefox Euroa Car Charging Site - EV Chargerswatters.com.auhttps://www.watters.com.au › portfolio-item › chargef...

Now, of course, Tesla do know something about batteries. I don't know whether they regularly employ them at their supercharger sites.

 

[Quickst]

I don't know whether they regularly employ them at their supercharger sites.

Not sure if "regularly employed"

But the Massive Tesla SC site at Baker CA where currently there is 40 stalls but is being expanded to 100 stalls including Megachargers for the Semi has solar power, and Tesla megapack batteries when the power supply was initially maxed out but apparently the current available power supply is enough .

 

[dronus]

Slightly off-topic with regards to superchargers, but the Chargefox at Euroa Shell is quite fascinating in that I believe the entire site is still fed by the existing 500kVa (service station plus about half a dozen food outlets), and they still managed to piggy-back 2x 350kW and 2x 50kW DCFC's onto it. They achieved this by installing a large (273kWh) buffer battery and 200kW solar array. I don't know what the real world charging rates achieved are when in constant (queued-up) use, however.

Chargefox Euroa Car Charging Site - EV Chargerswatters.com.auhttps://www.watters.com.au › portfolio-item › chargef...

Now, of course, Tesla do know something about batteries. I don't know whether they regularly employ them at their supercharger sites.

I haven’t been there yet but I see on PlugShare that it’s a similar deal (maybe?) at Keith in SA. There is a Tesla SC down the road then there is a 350kw charger at the shell.
I’d guess that most people would just be following their route planner in the car.

Like this

 

[Chuq]

You need to look past the whole they are perfect the way they are now.

I never said they were perfect, I just said we don't need all these additional complications when the existing solution - build more sites - is already happening (see this post). It's just a bit out of kilter at the moment as the sales went up rapidly (faster than anyone expected) and there is a lag.

It's not a continually escalating balance either - when a station gets to 40 stalls, and typical stop time is 30 minutes, you then have a car leaving on average every 45 seconds. Even a queue of 10 cars doesn't take long to clear at that rate.

 

[Jules22]

I never said they were perfect, I just said we don't need all these additional complications when the existing solution - build more sites - is already happening (see this post). It's just a bit out of kilter at the moment as the sales went up rapidly (faster than anyone expected) and there is a lag.

It's not a continually escalating balance either - when a station gets to 40 stalls, and typical stop time is 30 minutes, you then have a car leaving on average every 45 seconds. Even a queue of 10 cars doesn't take long to clear at that rate.

Would certainly help also if other EV manufacturers started investing in infrastructure.

They don't necessarily need to build their own network, though clearly that can be profitible if they do it properly. There are other options such as investing in or partnering with an existing network. Anything would be better than the current situation where you have the likes of Hyundai coming out and complaining about the lack of infrastructure when they are doing nothing themselves to improve it.

 

[dronus]

Would certainly help also if other EV manufacturers started investing in infrastructure.

They don't necessarily need to build their own network, though clearly that can be profitible if they do it properly. There are other options such as investing in or partnering with an existing network. Anything would be better than the current situation where you have the likes of Hyundai coming out and complaining about the lack of infrastructure when they are doing nothing themselves to improve it.

its the difference between being part of the problem, or part of the solution

 

[Chuq]

They don't necessarily need to build their own network, though clearly that can be profitible if they do it properly. There are other options such as investing in or partnering with an existing network.

It'd be interesting to know what the arrangement was between the various manufacturers who had Chargefox usage included. Did they pay Chargefox directly upfront, or are they just covering the usage?

As an aside, I know these arrangements has been painful for networks using Chargefox, since the "free charging" mentality from the owner encourages charger hogging. The network operator still gets the revenue that they would get from a paid charge, that's not the issue - but their sites are getting hogged, including instances of trickle charging to 100% as well as not moving promptly afterwards. Said network has a time component but the driver isn't paying for it so they don't care.

 

[moa999]

where you have the likes of Hyundai coming out and complaining about the lack of infrastructure when they are doing nothing themselves to improve it.

Yep.
At least overseas you have VWs Electrify America (albeit part of the diesel gate settlement).
And in Europe Ionity is funded by a group of manufacturers.

 

[Quickst]

Hyundai coming out and complaining about the lack of infrastructure when they are doing nothing themselves to improve it.

Hyundai AUS CEO did say he preferred if the Govt did not subsidise EV purchase but subsidise EV charging infrastructure. He didn't mention why Hyundai would not install DCFC on it own....

 

[Jules22]

Hyundai AUS CEO did say he preferred if the Govt did not subsidise EV purchase but subsidise EV charging infrastructure. He didn't mention why Hyundai would not install DCFC on it own....

I honestly think the issue needs to be tackled from both sides. The purchase subsidies help drive demand for more charging infrastructure which makes the proposition more profitible, at the same time without the infrastructure you have fewer people likely to make the change over to EV's.

I do suspect with the rapid uptake we've had that the balance needs to tip back towards infrastructure, however I worry that the knee jerk reaction will go too far. I suspect that with the rapid winding back of incentives in some states coupled with the road user tax (which has to come at some point, I think it's too early right now though) is going to cause a swing too far the other way.

 

[scully]

So even the busy locations wouldn't be busy for the whole 24hr period. I wonder if people would change their behaviour if networks offered off-peak discounts in busy periods?

 

[Quickst]

I honestly think the issue needs to be tackled from both sides.

I would disagree because IMO EV purchase subsidies is just another form of middle class welfare and actually distorts the market - as it appears to have done very early on as well.

I say again - if EV are so compelling they should not need subsidies.

Think of the number of EV registered in Australia at the moment let's say 100,000 and apply a $5000 government rebate (state and Federal) . That's $500 million which could have gone into installing EV charging infrastructure or upgrading power to EV charging sites. Imagine if ARENA was funded to $500M instead of $145M. Or whatever the subsidies are plus the ARENA etc funding

Governments should be about transport infrastructure not about making it easier for private owners to buy cars. In fact they should actually be disincentivising cars whatever the propulsion technology

 

[moa999]

So even the busy locations wouldn't be busy for the whole 24hr period. I wonder if people would change their behaviour if networks offered off-peak discounts in busy periods?

I mean we've seen Tesla (in the suburban centres) and today bp implement time of day pricing.

But on the major highways where people are often driving 5+ hours, at some point you are likely to end up hitting peak coming from another direction.

 

[bay74]

I haven’t been there yet but I see on PlugShare that it’s a similar deal (maybe?) at Keith in SA. There is a Tesla SC down the road then there is a 350kw charger at the shell.
I’d guess that most people would just be following their route planner in the car.

Yes but the Tesla SC is near the cafe and toilets, whereas the other charger is at the edge of town at some gross servo.

 

[Midnight Man]

When I visited the Free 2 stall NRMA DC charger in Wollongong there was only 1 car charging (Saturday morning)
At the same time the Tesla SC was 4/6 occupied

And the Pacific Highway is not the only route north....Anyone charged at Tenterfield, Tamworth and Hollydene?

I was at Hollydene at 11.41am on Sunday. We were the third car there, with 3 bays free. As we were getting ready to leave, another Tesla showed up.

Watching Tamworth and Hollydene during the weekend (we're new to EV/Tesla), there wasn't a queue that I saw at all - everyone stayed near the coast, and we enjoyed our brand new Y RWD beetling around the upper Hunter

 

[Quickst]

everyone stayed near the coast

Go to where the crowds aren't. It is almost always a better experience.

 

[dronus]

Go to where the crowds aren't. It is almost always a better experience.

Absolutely 100%. Sometimes that's at home during long weekends, then go to those popular places another weekend haha.

A while ago i drove from Adelaide to the Gold Coast to go to the theme parks etc when the kids were small. We went in the off peak period, it was raining and storms some nights but still warm and better than Adelaide weather. I didn't care if it was raining while i was at a water-world or in the pool at the hotel haha. The locals thought we were crazy, but no line ups and it was still like 30 + degrees each day. Some slides has signs saying if you are at that point its like an hour wait or something, we walked straight past and went to the ride.. Had a great time. I have a soft spot for QLD (especially Brisbane), such a cool place and the people i met were generally friendly and welcoming.