AUTO BILD: Tesla suspected subsidy fraud in Germany

[AustinPowers]

The infinite wisdom of socialists.

Well, the US are well known to be experts on socialism, aren't they...

By the way, the shadiness of Tesla's practices came from the fact that before Tesla introduced the "optional" comfort package the base price of any Model S was way above 60K Euro. They tailored the comfort package to specifically get the base price below 60K, and THEN made the comfort package mandatory. At least that is what I can testify to from my own experience. It couldn't be removed in the configurator, and the guy from the Tesla store even confirmed to me that the sole purpose of that package was to get the base price low enough to become eligable for the incentive. THAT is why the BAFA has taken the Model S off the list of eligable vehicles, because the regulations state that the 60K limit has to be for a car that can actually be purchased. The below 60K Model S, at least at the time, could not be purchased, that's the whole point.
And as for anybody suggesting exceptions are made for German models more expensive than 60K, that's BS. All cars above 60K base price don't get the incentive, no matter where they are from.

 

[arnis]

It's not just about doing a good job. It's about doing the best that could be done.
Money is a limited resource (some may disagree) It should be used as wisely as possible.
Giving it to rich to get an EV does less good than giving it to poor to do the same.
Also, buying one big SUV is doing less good than buying one much smaller vehicle.
So, if we assume money is limited, handing out one unit to get small EV is more efficient than
getting Model S. Model S is near perfect replacement for regular ICE. But low range EV is not.
Idea of incentives is not to lower CO2 nor make EV's more affordable directly. It's about shaping behavior.

 

[McRat]

...
Giving it to rich to get an EV does less good than giving it to poor to do the same.
...

In the USA, it's not 'giving' money. It's a matter of how much taxes you forfeit. We have layers and layers of taxes. It cost >$1000 just to get a Solar Permit where I live. There are other ways to reduce my tax liabilities other than EV purchases. A typical EV ($30k) in California can have $3000+ taxes added to it. A $140k EV can have $14,000 taxes added to it. These taxes are paid with money that has already been taxed once or twice before the sales tax. So 3 taxes per EV is what we see where I live, then it's taxed every year on top of that.

It has been proven that low prices on EVs doesn't make the 'poor' buy EVs here. We have EVs that are $89 a month. They sell poorly. Why?

 

[Reciprocity]

No, there is no cultural difference. We Americans are beginning to do the same dumb thing by putting car price caps on EV tax rebates.

Our legislators are often uneducated and lack critical thinking skills. They were elected on attractiveness and who spent the most money running for office most of the time. They are nearly all 'rich' but must coddle what they see as the biologically inferior proletariat to keep their image up. They are mostly out to make a buck and gain power. We are run by unqualified elitists in general.

Exactly. Its silly to cap them, because the profits are going to develop better and better cars/batteries. If the goal of an incentive is to help the environment then there should be not cap. Remember the inventive is a flat rate, meaning if the car is 10,000 its 40%, if the car is $100k then its 4%, or insignificant to right people. Though it might drive sales which will drive better and cheaper cars in the future. Instead they idiotically cut of their nose to spite their face and you have to ask why? They are smart enough to know what I just detailed, they are much smarter then I am. So my assumption is that its intentional and its purpose may not be 100% clear, but it seems to be an assault on a foreign car maker that is causing a great detail of pain tot he national car makers.

 

[Krugerrand]

They really need to make the effort of being visibly above board and squeaky clean. The course they set now is going to influence the company for a long time, and Tesla can't rely on massive scale and profits to smooth over the bumps.

The hypocrisy is strong with this one.

 

[MountainRoad]

This is an example of protectionism in Germany to allow German automobile manufacturers to recover from dieselgate and catch up to Tesla with their own electric vehicles. German car manufacturers are realizing that the threat from Tesla is real.

 

[Sean Wagner]

The hypocrisy is strong with this one.

Hypocrisy regarding what, considering my full post? Without context, it's a free floating accusation.

Meanwhile, there's an article about these putative shenanigans on Germany's most visited computer news site that has garnered over 600 comments and counting. Viz:
Tesla: Mit falschem Preis Elektroautoprämie erschlichen – Konzern widerspricht

It's beyond difficult - but potentially very rewarding - to break into the German market, and Tesla struggles mightily when sales number are compared with much smaller European countries like the Netherlands and Switzerland, never mind Norway.

It should be clear that a host of Tesla's detractors are ready to pounce on any appearance of impropriety.

 

[Johann Koeber]

FYI: if you configure a MS today it still shows the Umweltbonus (2.380 is 2.000 plus 19 % VAT):

 

[Spidy]

If incentive is "base price must be below 60k" and purchase price can be whatever, then
it makes the restriction even shadier. Because for ICE vehicle's, it would sound like:
If vehicle can be equipped with 3-cylinder engine, then all models in that lineup apply for
green sticker. Therefore BMW M3 applies because BMW 3-series can be equipped with 3-cylinder.

Utter nonsense. So much that there is chance there can't even be a lawsuit

P100D also qualified due to the base Model S...

 

[smac]

No, there is no cultural difference. We Americans are beginning to do the same dumb thing by putting car price caps on EV tax rebates.

There is definitely a culture difference. I've run businesses that operate either side of the pond and if you don't adapt to local markets you fail.

However the core premise of using rhetoric to appeal on a populist basis wins votes. Hence BREXIT (and I won't get into the whole Hilary vs. Trump debate, because as a UK citizen I've learnt it's best to keep my head well down when it comes to talking US politics, even if with good friends from the other side of the pond )

 

[AnxietyRanger]

My personal cultural difference experience: I almost always get along great with Brits - and almost never with Americans. As in, how well they get along with me and I get along with them, both ways. Something just gets lost in the translation with Americans. The gulf of cultural difference in personal interaction is massive.

 

[Canuck]

My personal cultural difference experience: I almost always get along great with Brits - and almost never with Americans. As in, how well they get along with me and I get along with them, both ways. Something just gets lost in the translation with Americans. The gulf of cultural difference in personal interaction is massive.

That's pure hogwash to me. I've been to England many times, and the US many more times. Of course, there are certain culture difference and people's characters vary on an individual basis, but overall the mix is much the same in both places. One thing I have learned from travelling a lot of the world is that people are not really all that different from us even in places that have far more cultural difference than England or the EU vs. America -- some are good, some are not so good, but overall most are decent and are doing the best to make sense of this crazy world we live in.

If you almost never get along with Americans, you need to look in the mirror, and not at Americans, for the reason, at least in my view.

 

[smac]

@Canuck I tend to agree that people are just people the world over (and I've been fortunate enough to have visited most of the EU countries, the US, Canada, Mexico, OZ, Africa, China.... ).

But I will say in my experience the further from the major cities you go the more the cultural differences come through. In part the reason for Brexit was that the London centric view of how the referendum would go was based on just that; a hubristic London centric view that in turn was perceived more globally as the UK view. Out in the rest of the UK feelings were very different, and you could almost see the remain vote being a direct overlay of the map of the major cities.

I think this holds true for a lot of countries. I did a road trip through Norway two years ago, by chance we ended up staying overnight in a bed and breakfast in a tiny village miles from anywhere. I was driving my ICE at the time, but conversation turned to EV's. There were definitely "anti-Oslo-ite" connotations to the EV perks. (And Tesla being so expensive get the brunt of that).


As a slight P.S. I had the great fortune to paddle for 6 days in Algonquin park during the fall colors this year. The scenery was stunning, and all the Canadians I met were great! I look forward to going back to "America's Hat" and hope to take in a trip round Bowron

 

[Krugerrand]

Hypocrisy regarding what, considering my full post? Without context, it's a free floating accusation.

It was entirely in context for this thread and your post. You stated Tesla must be squeaky clean, yadda, yadda. Unstated and hypocritical is that those German companies...not so much, eh? I am not in support of anyone's idea where one company has to be a certain way while others get to run amok and be another way. Poppycock!

 

[AnxietyRanger]

If you almost never get along with Americans, you need to look in the mirror, and not at Americans, for the reason, at least in my view.

Yes, well, that was a big part of my intent on the public soul searching there.

I do fully acknowledge my own role in the equation. My style plays a part. Whenever something happens constantly to you, you need to look at your own role in it. So I have. I do believe I know how I could change my behavior to fit with many of the expectations that currently go unmet. It is just a chore, because it requires a path that does not come naturally. Oh well, life is a learning process.

In any case, for whatever reason, what is interesting that my personal experience genuinely is, I am most definitely a much better cultural fit with Brits than with Americans. Whatever the Brits do differently in general rubs off and the dynamic of the interaction changes. Is it that they disarm me, charm me, or is it that their own expectations simply allow them to understand me better, I don't know. Or is it that they are on average so relaxed that nothing I say fazes them, a quality most enviable, if so. But I definitely have witnessed a marked difference over the years.

I have some theories why that is and they are very much about how these population cultures differ in general. Now, every population group is made up of individuals, for sure, but also of group behaviors. I am speculating on the group, not on any individual, of course.

One theory I have is a different sense of humor. My favourite controversial example is: How is Jeremy Clarkson taken. It is my experience that a significant portion of his charm or lack thereof is understood very differently depending on which side of the pond you are. (Not that all Brits love him either, but again, talking of average group behaviors.)

Now, mind you, none of this is commentary on who is right. Maybe nobody is. But it is notable to me, the cultural difference.

It probably affects this AUTO BILD conversation as well.

 

[AnxietyRanger]

It was entirely in context for this thread and your post. You stated Tesla must be squeaky clean, yadda, yadda. Unstated and hypocritical is that those German companies...not so much, eh? I am not in support of anyone's idea where one company has to be a certain way while others get to run amok and be another way. Poppycock!

The right answer, then, is to call out all bad behavior.

Dieselgate was an abomination. And if Tesla really did cancel non-Komfort-Paket orders, that IMO was unethical too. But of course Dieselgate was so on a much larger level.

 

[Sean Wagner]

It was entirely in context for this thread and your post. You stated Tesla must be squeaky clean, yadda, yadda. Unstated and hypocritical is that those German companies...not so much, eh? I am not in support of anyone's idea where one company has to be a certain way while others get to run amok and be another way. Poppycock!

I'm thinking about what furthers Tesla's local and global sales efforts. In the end, it's easier not to tolerate shady practices, and by that, I don't mean to treat above mentioned allegations regarding Tesla as established facts. But appearances also matter, and reputations must be actively upheld.

And there's no need for projecting into a void by filling in blanks at your convenience.

I was recently accused by Isabella Kaminska of the Financial Times' Alphaville section of being a Tesla shill with direct involvement in the company, seemingly simply for defending them by quoting relevant information [ad fontes!] in the face of an onslaught of quite biased reporting and commenting that masqueraded as criticism.

I joined the autodafes for VW, and quite evidently, German politics up to the very top was and is in deep cahoots with some companies, and had a big hand in enabling a climate conducive of criminal activities. Blocking stricter, EU wide norms [Merkel], and turning two blind eyes [Dobrindt] told me all I need to know.

But underestimating their resources, abilities, and potential for decisive action could be a fatal misstep. The best counter in ways of a learning opportunity is to be in and fully competing in their home market. I think that outside China, the world still needs Tesla to hasten the advent of our lower emissions future.

Nothing could help Tesla's competitors and detractors more than to lose focus.

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[AnxietyRanger]

So very well put @Sean Wagner. Tesla really should avoid these completely unnecessary self-inflicted wounds, assuming this reporting of order cancellations are accurate - and IMO given that even TMC member in Germany got the spiel from Tesla there that the non-Komfort-Paket is not available for purchase, I am starting to assume it is accurate at least on the German Tesla level.

And as every one of those people working at Tesla stores *are* Tesla, it is Tesla's job to make sure they have the right message. Maybe if this were a dealership we could chalk it up to them, but not really now...

I am one of those who believes hubris may be hurting Tesla. Maybe they really think they can get away with many things (e.g. the P85D HP and P90DL performance limiters), but IMO they would be super-wise to tone down this kind of hubris, if so. Tesla has a great product and a great advantage, IMO they should focus on that a bit more than these stunts...

 

[hacer]

So very well put @Sean Wagner. Tesla really should avoid these completely unnecessary self-inflicted wounds, assuming this reporting of order cancellations are accurate - and IMO given that even TMC member in Germany got the spiel from Tesla there that the non-Komfort-Paket is not available for purchase, I am starting to assume it is accurate at least on the German Tesla level.

And as every one of those people working at Tesla stores *are* Tesla, it is Tesla's job to make sure they have the right message. Maybe if this were a dealership we could chalk it up to them, but not really now...

I am one of those who believes hubris may be hurting Tesla. Maybe they really think they can get away with many things (e.g. the P85D HP and P90DL performance limiters), but IMO they would be super-wise to tone down this kind of hubris, if so. Tesla has a great product and a great advantage, IMO they should focus on that a bit more than these stunts...

How come you don't post in threads like this: Daimler busted ruining a Tesla Model X? ?

 

[AnxietyRanger]

How come you don't post in threads like this: Daimler busted ruining a Tesla Model X? ?

Ah, the art of deflection.

I just woke up and saw that other thread.

Let's keep this one about Tesla's potential unethical actions. As said, e.g. Dieselgate was much discussed at the time and widely condemned as it should be.