Autocross- SCCA EV-X Class vs. SS

[GAGT]

I mean, sure, anyone can drive a car slow, but once you're any good, the car matters a lot more than 9%... The first second of gap in SS class is:

NSX, GT4, GT4, GT3, NSX, GT3, GT3, GT4 (all current models, 2018 or newer)

I really doubt if you put any of those drivers in a SS Model 3, they would have run within a second of their times. Every year there is always a dominant car (or few) and if you don't have that, you flat out don't have a chance. The Model 3 sure is a fun, affordable, all around car though and the fact that it's questionable if it should be up against those kinds of $120k+, dedicated sports cars says a lot.

Here's to hoping the SCCA really takes the EVX class further ASAP. The logical upgrades it allows such as camber and coilovers could make a really competitive, fun class that sets them up for the future (which Porsche already agrees is electric).

That is assuming the M3P is a top 5 car, which like I said it is unfortunately not. But for sure the fact that it can hang with the $120k sports cars is awesome!

You cant really compare M3P results in SS because, and nothing against them, the guys driving them likely arent top tier drivers. And the top of SS is a list of who's who in national AutoX.

Its a chicken and egg issue as usual, fastest guys will mostly stick with cars that can win and not waste time trying to build data.

But the scaling of the results in SS, AS, and BS are somewhat appropriate this year. Here are top to half way thru trophies (there are too many trophies at nats IMO)

SS - 112.0 - 113-2
AS - 114.0 - 115.6
BS - 115.6 - 117.9

And quickest tesla was 120.2. Not even in the trophies of these classes so probably not a fully representative look at the potential.

The hardest part when looking at national results is understanding who is the aliens to be looking at. At the end of the day as long as I'm improving over time and having a blast while doing it, I'll continue to do it!

 

[RacerChris]

In a reasonable world we'd get Model S and 718 in SS, Model 3P in AS, Model 3 LR in BS maybe(?), and EVX as a dumping ground for everything modded like CAM.

The future is electric, but they're scared to upset the status quo while offerings are pretty slim. Though I don't see why when most classes are pretty much 1 or 2 overdogs and the rest also-rans.

I've also wondered if they (the SCCA) would consider adding the M3P to STU - I think that could be a potential fit. It will be interesting to see the PAX adjustment of STU vs. STR with the absolute beat down that STR did at Nats (I'm not sure how much weight they put in the Nats vs. other races for PAX adjustments).

And yea - I think the Taycan / Model S are too big unless you are on a realllllly big, wide open course...And have 335's on all four corners

 

[RacerChris]

Just thought I'd post an action photo from this past weekend - NOT a very M3-Friendly course (GS and HS cars were in the top three spots - very tight), but the car was still able to get FTD. The surface was very dusty and awful. Either way, still fun and learned a bit more about setup (would have gone softer!).

 

[GAGT]

I've also wondered if they (the SCCA) would consider adding the M3P to STU - I think that could be a potential fit. It will be interesting to see the PAX adjustment of STU vs. STR with the absolute beat down that STR did at Nats (I'm not sure how much weight they put in the Nats vs. other races for PAX adjustments).

And yea - I think the Taycan / Model S are too big unless you are on a realllllly big, wide open course...And have 335's on all four corners

I don't think STU is an option. It would be top dog for sure. Now this is based on my ability to get about the same raw times as a national champ 350z driven by someone who I believe to have similar driver abilities as myself (aka good but not that good haha) while I'm still in SS. These are at a championship tour location ~63 second courses.

However just now looking at STU mods, 245 width will suck donkey balls..

Just thought I'd post an action photo from this past weekend - NOT a very M3-Friendly course (GS and HS cars were in the top three spots - very tight), but the car was still able to get FTD. The surface was very dusty and awful. Either way, still fun and learned a bit more about setup (would have gone softer!).

View attachment 708767

Love the photo but would not want to race there! unless I had some throw aways I didn't mind drifting all over haha.

 

[RacerChris]

I don't think STU is an option. It would be top dog for sure. Now this is based on my ability to get about the same raw times as a national champ 350z driven by someone who I believe to have similar driver abilities as myself (aka good but not that good haha) while I'm still in SS. These are at a championship tour location ~63 second courses.

However just now looking at STU mods, 245 width will suck donkey balls..



Love the photo but would not want to race there! unless I had some throw aways I didn't mind drifting all over haha.

STU allows 295 for AWD - They made some nice tire adjustments to the the ST classes somewhat recently. I think they realized that a lot of street class cars were running wider tires than what ST was allowing!

 

[GAGT]

STU allows 295 for AWD - They made some nice tire adjustments to the the ST classes somewhat recently. I think they realized that a lot of street class cars were running wider tires than what ST was allowing!

oof I defiantly opened a 2015 pdf not the 2021 one. Alright that is way better but don't you think it would be top dog?

 

[RacerChris]

oof I defiantly opened a 2015 pdf not the 2021 one. Alright that is way better but don't you think it would be top dog?

I definitely think it would be a competitive dog which is why I think it should be in STU haha. I think it would be course dependent and honestly, probably a good fit. At nationals, the STU top 4 were 114.3-114.6, the fastest ASP Tesla was 114.8 for comparison.

 

[Dallas J]

(I'm not sure how much weight they put in the Nats vs. other races for PAX adjustments).

PAX is based moreso on asphalt than concrete. Pre-A052 the gain in time for A7s was always significantly more than the gain from Street tires. If you look back at previous years of PAX results before 2020 you'll see how far back the street tires start showing up on Index even with aliens driving. A052 brings a bit of balance between concrete and asphalt but scales are still tipped to race tires.

Regarding M3P and STU, M3P would CRUSH the rest of current STU. And thats with current M3P builds which are mostly OTS parts and not getting into the more developed type of builds that typically sit at top of classes.

 

[RacerChris]

PAX is based moreso on asphalt than concrete. Pre-A052 the gain in time for A7s was always significantly more than the gain from Street tires. If you look back at previous years of PAX results before 2020 you'll see how far back the street tires start showing up on Index even with aliens driving. A052 brings a bit of balance between concrete and asphalt but scales are still tipped to race tires.

Regarding M3P and STU, M3P would CRUSH the rest of current STU. And thats with current M3P builds which are mostly OTS parts and not getting into the more developed type of builds that typically sit at top of classes.

I know I would never build my car to full STU spec - That is one thing I like about EVX is it does keep things more street/daily friendly. A full STU build would be a monster.

 

[SK360]

Complete *sugar* course this past weekend and breaking news, a 4.0 PDK GT3 on fresh 660’s is fast. Good thing I escaped SS

 

[gtechie]

Oh that photo is a keeper!

 

[Dallas J]

I planned on getting more AX action in the Tesla this year but had some bigger events and testing that needed to get done for the Evo delaying things. But finally got to run it today but sopping wet. This is our smallest location we race at but conveniently the closest.

Caveats: Ive been doing AX and Track stuff since 2004 with countless tour/pro wins and a 1st and 2nd at solo nationals.

(rant) The stock setup for the Tesla kinda sucks. Its so floppy, understeers on entry with tire chatter which is typically symptom of too much shock compression yet not enough rebound, and massive oversteer on exit and not in a progressive or predictable way. (/rant)

This was also first real rain in months and the lot was obscenely slippery which likely caused most of the issues. Regen braking was a full on no-go here where it only caused the entry washing out. I left the power split at 50:50 and traction at -4 (first run was full negative but added some back in to try and control the corner exit). I think it was best full negative and just staying super gentle with throttle at exit.

Second Caveat: I can only compare this to my Evo which has 11 years of development and the car I designed and make full billet suspension for (side business). Its not a fair comparison but its where the Tesla needs to get and where I think it can get.

 

[RacerChris]

Complete *sugar* course this past weekend and breaking news, a 4.0 PDK GT3 on fresh 660’s is fast. Good thing I escaped SS

View attachment 710456

View attachment 710457

You are not k

I planned on getting more AX action in the Tesla this year but had some bigger events and testing that needed to get done for the Evo delaying things. But finally got to run it today but sopping wet. This is our smallest location we race at but conveniently the closest.

Caveats: Ive been doing AX and Track stuff since 2004 with countless tour/pro wins and a 1st and 2nd at solo nationals.

(rant) The stock setup for the Tesla kinda sucks. Its so floppy, understeers on entry with tire chatter which is typically symptom of too much shock compression yet not enough rebound, and massive oversteer on exit and not in a progressive or predictable way. (/rant)

This was also first real rain in months and the lot was obscenely slippery which likely caused most of the issues. Regen braking was a full on no-go here where it only caused the entry washing out. I left the power split at 50:50 and traction at -4 (first run was full negative but added some back in to try and control the corner exit). I think it was best full negative and just staying super gentle with throttle at exit.

Second Caveat: I can only compare this to my Evo which has 11 years of development and the car I designed and make full billet suspension for (side business). Its not a fair comparison but its where the Tesla needs to get and where I think it can get.

Looked smooth!

I had another event this past weekend. I joke, but I don't think it's completely a joke - Another great result but I made a mistake each run in a "you choose" section that probably kept me off the top of FTD and FTDI (embarrassing!). The course was asphalt and is basically three turns with long straights full of a slaloms in between. I once again was running with 5/5 front and 4/4 rear settings. I think one click softer in the rear might have helped the car as I did have a bit of snap oversteer. Overall though, the car tackled tight sections way better than a car of this size should!

 

[Dallas J]

Ok, we got some like 80% dry conditions today and the difference from full wet to dry is dramatic. Also getting more dialed in with the way the car handles really helps.

One fun bit, I rode with a friend (national caliber driver) in a C8 and was blown away by how it drove. Puts power down great, corner entry is epic, and exit was super smooth. He ran a 31.9 on that run (his best run). I ran back and hopped in Ginny (our Model3) and hustled it to a 31.6. 100% I dont understand how I was faster because that C8 felt so good. Like a smooth boxer vs a rough street fighter.

So heres todays run from inside the car. PIR is pretty small and to get speed out of the Tesla it took hamfisting in some areas and being very patient and gentle in others.

 

[GAGT]

(275/35-19 Rivals) Can confirm they do work HOWEVER with stock suspension and stock offset they will clearance themselves on the radius of the knuckle unlike my SUR4G's. Like I said they are self clearancing so its not to worry but figured I should shed some light on that with first hand experience. They do take the heat pretty well, I'd say better than my SUR4G's. I haven't crunched any data to say if I'm pulling more G's with the Rivals vs SUR4G and they were never back to back soooo otherwise I don't feel I have the experience to comment otherwise. I just go out there and send it and have a good time.

Just an update, they also can catch the ABS wire Silly me thought that was only a issue when gaining camber so I never pre-emptively zip tied them back. Granted it occurred in the braking zone on a ~75 mph left gradually increasing sweeper(mocked after Suzuki 130r)

 

[RacerChris]

Ok, we got some like 80% dry conditions today and the difference from full wet to dry is dramatic. Also getting more dialed in with the way the car handles really helps.

One fun bit, I rode with a friend (national caliber driver) in a C8 and was blown away by how it drove. Puts power down great, corner entry is epic, and exit was super smooth. He ran a 31.9 on that run (his best run). I ran back and hopped in Ginny (our Model3) and hustled it to a 31.6. 100% I dont understand how I was faster because that C8 felt so good. Like a smooth boxer vs a rough street fighter.

So heres todays run from inside the car. PIR is pretty small and to get speed out of the Tesla it took hamfisting in some areas and being very patient and gentle in others.

From watching the video (and racing against numerous C8's in my region), it looks like you had enough acceleration zones to lay down power incrementally quicker. The last bigger event we had on concrete was my first FTDI (in SS form) and I think it was due to a "S" section in the middle of the track that created two nice digs. The tesla just destroyed everything there (that day I was .1 off of FTD - a modded out CAM-S vette). Nice work!

With that said, the C8 is a monster!

 

[Dallas J]

Gotta say even though its a very lop sided approach to its speed, I'm not unimpressed with the car in the dry. The brakes are impressive in its ability to stop the car considering the speed it picks up and lack of cornering speed on this tight lot. I was dropping to ~24mph mid corner but hitting nearly 60 before it so it was a full-on drop the anchor to get slowed enough.

Cant wait to see how things improve on coilovers and some camber.

 

[RacerChris]

Gotta say even though its a very lop sided approach to its speed, I'm not unimpressed with the car in the dry. The brakes are impressive in its ability to stop the car considering the speed it picks up and lack of cornering speed on this tight lot. I was dropping to ~24mph mid corner but hitting nearly 60 before it so it was a full-on drop the anchor to get slowed enough.

Cant wait to see how things improve on coilovers and some camber.

It's so much better. Seriously transforms the car. My car has so much more mid corner steering now. Where the front end used to give up, the rear end will start rotating on power (I run 50/50) power. I have to do some pretty silly/hamfisted stuff to get it to understeer at this point!

 

[gearchruncher]

I ran back and hopped in Ginny (our Model3) and hustled it to a 31.6. 100% I dont understand how I was faster because that C8 felt so good. Like a smooth boxer vs a rough street fighter.

Gotta say even though its a very lop sided approach to its speed, I'm not unimpressed with the car in the dry. The brakes are impressive in its ability to stop the car considering the speed it picks up and lack of cornering speed on this tight lot.

You drive the Tesla differently. Point and shoot. Brake hard, slower in the corner, get the nose pointed, on the power.

I've had national level guys ride with me and then co-drive. They tell me I could be smoother, that I over brake and unsettle the car, although the acceleration is epic. They go drive and they are super smooth. But they are slower. At the end of the day they are driving it like the street fighter you mention, getting on the power as early as possible. They all mentioned the brakes being way more confident and effective than they imagined (I think it being an EV makes them think the brakes will suck).

Go get that camber and coil overs. I run 50/50 too- I think the bias shift is mostly a gimmick and not linear, and it's only really useful if you want to be a RWD drift machine. The stability control is a different matter- it can actually manage the power quite well and has more skill than most people in keeping the car in line under power, and can put different power at the two axles which you can't do with your foot. On dry, grippy tracks, I can get away with -10, but if it's slippery at all something like -5 is faster for me as I can get on the power earlier and let it manage it.

 

[Dallas J]

You drive the Tesla differently. Point and shoot. Brake hard, slower in the corner, get the nose pointed, on the power.

I've had national level guys ride with me and then co-drive. They tell me I could be smoother, that I over brake and unsettle the car, although the acceleration is epic. They go drive and they are super smooth. But they are slower. At the end of the day they are driving it like the street fighter you mention, getting on the power as early as possible. They all mentioned the brakes being way more confident and effective than they imagined (I think it being an EV makes them think the brakes will suck).

Go get that camber and coil overs. I run 50/50 too- I think the bias shift is mostly a gimmick and not linear, and it's only really useful if you want to be a RWD drift machine. The stability control is a different matter- it can actually manage the power quite well and has more skill than most people in keeping the car in line under power, and can put different power at the two axles which you can't do with your foot. On dry, grippy tracks, I can get away with -10, but if it's slippery at all something like -5 is faster for me as I can get on the power earlier and let it manage it.

I tried a lot of things in driving style and it really seemed like just enough aggression to stay under the slip limit was the goal in the wet and drying conditions. But because the massive difference in its lateral vs longitudinal performance stock it really just needed to be man handled right up to the limit. Slightly different than my Evo that we treat as a speed maintenance car you drive slightly beyond the limit (500whp, 315 A7s, 2950lbs). But the brakes are certainly under appreciated here, it would be tragic if they sucked.

I also found the regen was no good in the wet. Asking the front to turn was hard enough, adding motor braking helped nothing. I'll try it again in the dry, but I'm guessing its going to be in the 50% range for me just to get the front to turn in.

Talking with Lugod (if you know you know...) now for his spec of coilovers. I know UP and MPP have plenty of offerings, but autocrossers supporting autocrossers and all . As best we can find for motion ratios, we're looking at starting in the 12k/16k range which should be a street friendly 1.7/2.0hz.