Autopilot braking error ... not good

[krong]

Autopilot on M3 with 2019.8.1
For the second time now, I had to manually brake to avoid crashing into a car in front of me while on autopilot. This has only happened in the morning (in LA around 7:30-8:30a) and both times it was a white car in front of me. I was travelling east I believe both times. I thought the new M3s have both radar and camera? If only camera I would think it's an error due to the sun angle and color of the car, but with radar as well how would that happen?? The first time I thought it was just some random fluke (albeit an uncomfortable one for someone who is looking forward to FSD), the second time it's definitely not a fluke, but wondering if this has happened to anyone else?

 

[Trevor B]

It's a beta product ... but unlike other betas, you have to pay to use it

 

[animorph]

Yes, it happens. That's why you need to be ready to take over.

Radar is poor for detecting stationary objects. Mainly because there are lots of stationary objects it can see, and its resolution is not great. Vision just isn't quite there yet. Hopefully a larger neural network in HW3 will firm up vision performance,

 

[krong]

It's a beta product ... but unlike other betas, you have to pay to use it

yeah, but this is an adaptive cruise issue which I would think is beyond beta no?

 

[Runt8]

I've had TACC wait what I would consider an uncomfortable amount of time before it started slowing down (and then brake heavily), but I've never had it fail to stop at all. Did you notice if the car in front of you was showing up on the screen in a darker color?

 

[Timmy T.]

I take over many times because it's not very comfortable at a certain distance and speed. And I have it set to the safest level.

 

[krong]

I've had TACC wait what I would consider an uncomfortable amount of time before it started slowing down (and then brake heavily), but I've never had it fail to stop at all. Did you notice if the car in front of you was showing up on the screen in a darker color?

I wasn't paying attention to the screen at the time but I had to slam on the brakes. From now on I'll try to pay attention to that when I have a white vehicle in front of me in the am. What does the darker color indicate?

 

[Silicon Desert]

Yes, it happens. That's why you need to be ready to take over.

Radar is poor for detecting stationary objects.

No really sure what you mean by that statement. As a person whom has worked a lot on such systems, this is an incorrect statement. Radar if properly designed and working is fabulous at stationary objects. The problem in this case is due to a combination of other reasons.

 

[Runt8]

I wasn't paying attention to the screen at the time but I had to slam on the brakes. From now on I'll try to pay attention to that when I have a white vehicle in front of me in the am. What does the darker color indicate?

The darker car is the one that you are matching speed to.

 

[X Fan]

Sun on concrete at a certain angle seems to be the Achilles heel of AP.

you never know when it could turn upside down....thus, early morning or late afternoon drives I’m particularly careful no matter what surface traveling on.

I’m glad nothing happened to you...

 

[Daniel in SD]

No really sure what you mean by that statement. As a person whom has worked a lot on such systems, this is an incorrect statement. Radar if properly designed and working is fabulous at stationary objects. The problem in this case is due to a combination of other reasons.

How do you tell the difference between a stopped car and an overpass with radar?

 

[David L]

I've never encountered what you mentioned over 12k+ miles of driving the 3, except when coming up on a nearly stopped vehicle at high speed. In regular (for CA anyhow) freeway traffic, I've only encountered an issue once. Another car made a somewhat aggressive lane change into my lane, then traffic slowed down abruptly. AP responded to the lane change by only braking slightly, but not enough to increase the following distance to what I'd expect for a following distance of 2 (or even 1). Then when traffic slowed down abruptly, AP nearly hit the car. I'd call this a corner case, but it's clearly a case that a human driver would have foreseen and handled much better.

 

[Brian's ReX]

The darker car is the one that you are matching speed to.

Is it different on the Model 3? My X shows the immediate vehicle as 'lighter'. That's how I know it sees the vehicle I'm concerned about.

I would think 'darker' would be a bad idea...

 

[rdunniii]

I've never encountered what you mentioned over 12k+ miles of driving the 3, except when coming up on a nearly stopped vehicle at high speed. In regular (for CA anyhow) freeway traffic, I've only encountered an issue once. Another car made a somewhat aggressive lane change into my lane, then traffic slowed down abruptly. AP responded to the lane change by only braking slightly, but not enough to increase the following distance to what I'd expect for a following distance of 2 (or even 1). Then when traffic slowed down abruptly, AP nearly hit the car. I'd call this a corner case, but it's clearly a case that a human driver would have foreseen and handled much better.

Been in more than one chain car situation like that and yes you need to be watching several cars in front and beside you at the same time because the likelihood that one of them will do something stupid, like an abrupt lane change in front of you. increases as the cars slow down and get closer together.

 

[Runt8]

Is it different on the Model 3? My X shows the immediate vehicle as 'lighter'. That's how I know it sees the vehicle I'm concerned about.

I would think 'darker' would be a bad idea...

If I remember correctly it’s darker in day mode and lighter in night mode. My Model 3 is at the service center now so can’t verify at the moment.

 

[GolanB]

Tesla Radar specs state that it has visibility up to 250 meters of range. The color of the car in front of you should not change how the radar reacts (let’s remember, it’s not a stealth fighter plane). I’m more inclined to believe it was the interpretation of the sensor data that failed in your case with this release of code. On the other hand, Tesla may want you to bring in your car if it happens again to have the radar and sensors examined. Tesla asked me to recalibrate and reset the sensors and computer after my autopilot completely failed yesterday with a radar warning. It’s been somewhat frustrating for me to get information from Tesla when a failure like this occurs. They’ve got enough log data to determine the cause, and every time I have an issue like this I watch as almost one gig of data is uploaded to Tesla. Yet I rarely if ever get a solid explanation of what happened. This entire 2019.8.x release feels less stable to me than the version 2018 version I was running on prior to this. It’s caused me to really question the overall safety and QA process Tesla has been leveraging in this years code base. Tesla should do a better job of communicating with customers who’ve had autopilot failures and be more descriptive with their feedback. Right now it feels rather opaque and the customer service teams seem over tasked. If I were Tesla I’d create a separate working group within their call center to funnel data about autopilot issues directly to management and development and break it away from the flood of other support related issues. It’s too important to group together with other functionality questions.

 

[krong]

Thanks everyone, I really appreciate the feedback. There is no option for me to "like" the responses for some reason, but again much appreciated.

 

[SergeyUser]

@krong, at what speed have you been driving?

 

[krong]

@krong, at what speed have you been driving?

around 35-40mph on that route.

 

[Pied]

I wasn't paying attention to the screen at the time but I had to slam on the brakes. From now on I'll try to pay attention to that when I have a white vehicle in front of me in the am. What does the darker color indicate?

I'm always glancing at the screen when using TACC/AP. If cars in front don't show up on the screen I'm ready to take over. Cars will show up pretty far out, so if you don't see them on the screen within 4-5 cars length, best be ready to take over