Autopilot vs FSD

[ewoodrick]

I certainly did not expect it to be perfect. The issues that I experienced preclude me personally from using it. That is all. in contrast, I found EAP on the highway to be near perfect, and the only point of my post was to query whether there is any way to get EAP without spending $8k or $99/month for FSD, which I will not use. Apparently not, it seems.

FSD has had different iterations over the years. In the beginning, is was like Basic Autopilot and then it was like EAP.
More specifically, Autopilot is basically an old version of FSD. And EAP was an old version that was often referred to a Navigate on Autopilot (NoP).

V11 FSD does better at Autopilot or EAP than each of the current versions do.

V12 is basically a rewrite of the code, a little more specifically no more code. In the first public release, it did so much better than V11. But as it is a rewrite, some new issues were introduced. There's a little regression with a LOT of progression.

You aren't seeing updates to Autopilot or EAP are you? That's because there is no development there. I don' think that you will ever see any more development, unless it's a FSD routine that gets updated. If I'm not mistaken, there were indications that EAP may even cease to exist.

So yes, the EAP code is pretty good. That's one of the reasons why until V12, the car would use it on the Interstates, but it's been replaced now.


Saying that the issues that it had precluded you from using it. that's not fair. If you know what and where the issues are, then disable or push through the issue as needed. Because it doesn't work on a 5 ft section of road doesn't mean that it can't drive the other 60 miles.

 

[CMPT PAD]

I certainly did not expect it to be perfect. The issues that I experienced preclude me personally from using it. That is all. in contrast, I found EAP on the highway to be near perfect, and the only point of my post was to query whether there is any way to get EAP without spending $8k or $99/month for FSD, which I will not use. Apparently not, it seems.

is EAP about $4K?
Thanks

 

[Gigga]

is EAP about $4K?
Thanks

Appears that EAP is no longer available.

 

[Gigga]

FSD has had different iterations over the years. In the beginning, is was like Basic Autopilot and then it was like EAP.
More specifically, Autopilot is basically an old version of FSD. And EAP was an old version that was often referred to a Navigate on Autopilot (NoP).

V11 FSD does better at Autopilot or EAP than each of the current versions do.

V12 is basically a rewrite of the code, a little more specifically no more code. In the first public release, it did so much better than V11. But as it is a rewrite, some new issues were introduced. There's a little regression with a LOT of progression.

You aren't seeing updates to Autopilot or EAP are you? That's because there is no development there. I don' think that you will ever see any more development, unless it's a FSD routine that gets updated. If I'm not mistaken, there were indications that EAP may even cease to exist.

So yes, the EAP code is pretty good. That's one of the reasons why until V12, the car would use it on the Interstates, but it's been replaced now.


Saying that the issues that it had precluded you from using it. that's not fair. If you know what and where the issues are, then disable or push through the issue as needed. Because it doesn't work on a 5 ft section of road doesn't mean that it can't drive the other 60 miles.

I very much appreciate your comments and explanation. I'd add this follow up and to further explicate my critique of FSD vs. EAP as it now exists (June 2024) on a car with FSD:

Everyone has a different driving style. I skew conservative. Others are more spirited or aggressive. On the highway, with FSD disabled, i.e. using EAP, the smart features are predictable and within my control. As an example, the car does not make lane changes unless I invoke same with a turn signal. With FSD, the car will change lanes according to its internal criteria, which appears to include, getting to the destination in the shortest possible time. This may reflect the interests of the majority of drivers, but not me! FSD should include options that allow each driver to customize for their individual styles. Clearly this is possible, because a rough version is available by disabling FSD, but Tesla has chosen not to implement it.

My problem on local roads is more acute. FSD crapped out three times in a row during three complex turns (two lanes of traffic turning). For me, this is not acceptable. I am not prepared to monitor my car's behavior on that granular level. Had I failed to take over rapidly, I (or FSD) would have caused a collision. Some drivers may be willing and able to respond to those situations, but I am not. Easier to skip FSD and drive it myself. I do not have a problem with FSD in general, and I hope that it eventually will meet the hopes and expectations that we all share. But I am willing or able to be a test subject.

Given that EAP is seamless & effective I hope that Tesla doesn't discontinue it and force us to use FSD on the highway, unless they refine the options available.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

Given that EAP is seamless & effective I hope that Tesla doesn't discontinue it and force us to use FSD on the highway, unless they refine the options available.

I'm with you.

Both EAP and FSD are ADASs, Advance Driver-ASSISTANCE Systems.

I want something to assist me, not bully me into driving in a car in any way I don't want or abandoning me when it doesn't feel it can handle the situation.

With EAP, I know exactly what it can do, its strengths, its weaknesses, and can use it to assist me accordingly. I can turn off subsections of the system (i.e. NoA or stop light recognition.) I can use Autosteer along with Cruise Control if I want, or just cruise control.

With FSD, it is a 'black box' with unknown/undocumented capabilities (aside from Elon's "it will blow your mind and it should be considered L3" comments), unknown decision making criteria, unreliable, abandoning a simple task like driving down a highway at the speed limit, with the TAKE CONTROL IMMEDIATELY alarm. This is a product labeled "supervised" but refusing to take any input from the supervisor. My choices are "it makes all the decisions" or "I do all the driving with no assistance at all, including no cruise control."

For the most part, I like the one that is the assistant. And I hate FSD.

 

[ewoodrick]

I very much appreciate your comments and explanation. I'd add this follow up and to further explicate my critique of FSD vs. EAP as it now exists (June 2024) on a car with FSD:

Everyone has a different driving style. I skew conservative. Others are more spirited or aggressive. On the highway, with FSD disabled, i.e. using EAP, the smart features are predictable and within my control. As an example, the car does not make lane changes unless I invoke same with a turn signal. With FSD, the car will change lanes according to its internal criteria, which appears to include, getting to the destination in the shortest possible time. This may reflect the interests of the majority of drivers, but not me! FSD should include options that allow each driver to customize for their individual styles. Clearly this is possible, because a rough version is available by disabling FSD, but Tesla has chosen not to implement it.

My problem on local roads is more acute. FSD crapped out three times in a row during three complex turns (two lanes of traffic turning). For me, this is not acceptable. I am not prepared to monitor my car's behavior on that granular level. Had I failed to take over rapidly, I (or FSD) would have caused a collision. Some drivers may be willing and able to respond to those situations, but I am not. Easier to skip FSD and drive it myself. I do not have a problem with FSD in general, and I hope that it eventually will meet the hopes and expectations that we all share. But I am willing or able to be a test subject.

Given that EAP is seamless & effective I hope that Tesla doesn't discontinue it and force us to use FSD on the highway, unless they refine the options available.

There are different driving styles available in FSD today. Elon indicated that they are getting renamed.

The basic rules for lane management seems be

• Don't drive in the right lane
• If in a lane and someone comes up behind you, move right to let them pass
• Change lanes if current speed is less than about 5 mph below set speed

My cars have no issues with two turn lanes in either direction.

FSD requires learning, your learning on how it works. It is common for people to override it because it is obviously about to cause an accident. But if you go back and do the same thing again, you often find that the car handles the situation with no issues.

A great example of this is nearly a year ago, I was driving down a road and there was a postal carrier pulled off at a mailbox. What would you do? It's obvious that the car is going to have a collision.

I let the car continue, paying close attention. And guess what, it correctly moved partially into the other lane and passed the mail carrier.

And then a few weeks later, it happened again. Except this time there was a car coming at us. Oh no, it's going to crash.
But I let the car continue on. It slowed down, stopped, waiting for oncoming traffic to pass and then moved partially into the other lane and passed the mail carrier.

In another case, it was coming up on a bicycle in the same direction on extremely curvy roads with limited viewing. It slowed down to the bicycles speed and patiently waited for enough viewing distance before moving partially into the other lane and passing the bike.

It takes time to learn FSD. I've used it since it was born. Previous version couldn't even take a turn if it was too sharp, but that was 4+ years ago. FSD successfully ran the Tail of the Dragon a few years ago, a huge jump in capability.

 

[ewoodrick]

I'm with you.

Both EAP and FSD are ADASs, Advance Driver-ASSISTANCE Systems.

I want something to assist me, not bully me into driving in a car in any way I don't want or abandoning me when it doesn't feel it can handle the situation.

With EAP, I know exactly what it can do, its strengths, its weaknesses, and can use it to assist me accordingly. I can turn off subsections of the system (i.e. NoA or stop light recognition.) I can use Autosteer along with Cruise Control if I want, or just cruise control.

With FSD, it is a 'black box' with unknown/undocumented capabilities (aside from Elon's "it will blow your mind and it should be considered L3" comments), unknown decision making criteria, unreliable, abandoning a simple task like driving down a highway at the speed limit, with the TAKE CONTROL IMMEDIATELY alarm. This is a product labeled "supervised" but refusing to take any input from the supervisor. My choices are "it makes all the decisions" or "I do all the driving with no assistance at all, including no cruise control."

For the most part, I like the one that is the assistant. And I hate FSD.

I believe that EAP is no longer being sold. So you may not have the option in the future.

And isn't really a "black box" It's simply another driver.

 

[SidetrackedSue]

I believe that EAP is no longer being sold. So you may not have the option in the future.

I paid $$$$$ for FSD when the car was bought. The only way I won't have EAP is if elon takes it away. Which I figure is better than 50/50 odds he will.

Both Gigga and I don't want that to happen.

As for 'in the future', there is no future for me that includes another tesla.

 

[Gigga]

I paid $$$$$ for FSD when the car was bought. The only way I won't have EAP is if elon takes it away. Which I figure is better than 50/50 odds he will.

Both Gigga and I don't want that to happen.

As for 'in the future', there is no future for me that includes another tesla.

From scattered comments that I have read in different threads, I believe that there are many people who like EAP a lot, and do not care for FSD. No way to predict the future, but I hope that with FSD disable, Autopilot will give us the enhanced version.

During this month that I have FSD subscribed (though not enabled) I have noticed another possible enhancement, specifically that on a couple or so occasions I get a screen alert that the car has taken over steering for safety reasons. I don't know if this is a standard safety feature or a byproduct of having FSD available.

I am considering purchasing FSD outright in order to keep EAP and whatever else it provides. I've read anecdotal reports that Autopilot on FSD cars drives better than pain Autopilot. No idea if this is the case, but EAP does have some refinements, such as moving a bit left when a vehicle is hugging the lane divider or where there is an oversized truck.

 

[Mundoman4]

Hi hope this is a simple question.
I purchased FSD in ‘18 and transferred to my MY in ‘23 so don’t know about subscription.

When FSD Beta first came out you had to get a good “Safety Score” before being able to use FSD.
But I don’t think you need that anymore, but couldn’t find anywhere saying you didn’t need it…
Have a friend that wants to try FSD subscription but doesn’t know if they get access right away or will have to wait.

 

[ewoodrick]

Hi hope this is a simple question.
I purchased FSD in ‘18 and transferred to my MY in ‘23 so don’t know about subscription.

When FSD Beta first came out you had to get a good “Safety Score” before being able to use FSD.
But I don’t think you need that anymore, but couldn’t find anywhere saying you didn’t need it…
Have a friend that wants to try FSD subscription but doesn’t know if they get access right away or will have to wait.

Safety Score is no longer a requirement for FSD.
Your friend should have received an offer for the one-month trial. It depends on the vehicle and the current software if FSD is available.