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Battery Format for Model 3 - 18650 commodity cells or large format batteries

What cell format will Tesla use for the Model 3?


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    6
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Some drive EVs as a statement. Just look at the ride in my Avatar. The Prius, LEAF, iMev, i3 are all statement designs. Honda made a Civic hybrid that was very competitive with the Prius from a spec standpoint, but it didn't sell because the buyers wanted to make a statement: "it ain't easy being green" --Kermit the Frog
The Civic Hybrid did relatively worse because Honda's IMA system is simply inferior (at least the earlier versions, some of which also had battery problems that dropped efficiency drastically). It didn't look good either (it looked just like the Civic, except the wheels made it look even less sporty). Honda's later gen 4-door Insight was styled just like the Prius but flopped.
 
You can make a statement with good looks as well, probably a more effective statement, as Tesla has proven.

Fancy cars are a statement too, which I don't like. Just can fall in love with my Model S because of that. My wife loves her Model X, but she wants a status symbol. Maybe the M3 is something I can love, but until then, my primary ride will be a LEAF or Bolt.
 
I presume Porsche will design their battery pack and cabling to take advantage of the 800V. 15 minutes to 80% charge on a 400 mile pack would be AWESOME. Basically rivals ICE cars. Tesla needs some competition, it will be good for Tesla loyalists.

As others have pointed out... the 800 volt thing is a red herring. The #1 issue is the battery chemistry. Maybe VW/Porsche and their battery partners can deliver. Maybe not. As it stands right now, Tesla's cell chemistry has specific energy of somewhere around 270 Wh/kg. Tesla allows us to discharge at around 6C, and charge at around 1.5C. With that, we expect degradation around 12% after 3,000 charge cycles with 60% depth of discharge. I think Tesla pushes these boundaries as hard as anyone, and I think their priorities are, 1) cell degradation 2) specific energy 3) cost 4) discharge c-rate 5) charge c-rate.

You can play around with these specs, but if you change one, you affect another. Now, all the major automakers with any real sort of mass production of battery packs is choosing to go down the route of NMC chemistry. It can tolerate a higher discharge and charge c-rates, but has lower specific energy. And we aren't quite sure about cell degradation.

For Porsche to have a competitive sports vehicle, not just against Tesla but benchmarked against their own internal metrics for what a sports car should be, would need much lighter batteries. So their priority list probably looks like:
1) specific energy 2) discharge c-rate 3) charge c-rate 4) cell degradation 5) cost

Specific energy directly affects the weight of the car, driving the overall design of basically everything. This is why LiFePO4 chemistry made in great quantities in China doesn't end up going anywhere. It's too heavy. For Porsche, the vehicle must be light in order to have any of the sports car qualities they really want versus the GT sports car feel. Increasing specific energy likely lowers the charge c-rate for a given cell degradation. If they choose to forgo liquid cell thermal management, they save weight, but then shedding heat during high charge c-rate becomes a big problem.

If Porsche does manage to ship a high c-rate battery pack, I would be very interested to know the cell degradation characteristics. Maybe they think the solid electrolyte chemistries will be available by then. But 2019 is very, very close for new cell chemistries to make it into production cars. Since they have no real Tesla competitor shipping, they feel free to tout vaporware... there is no cell chemistry that is production that can fulfill their requirements. We'll see if anything in the labs makes it in time. But this 800 volt thing is misleading because it doesn't change the charging c-rate. It does help put more energy across a fixed amperage cable... ie. the 350 A CCS connector. But at 400 volts x 350 amps, you have to be able to tolerate a 140 kW charge before you bother going to 800 volts. Technically, you can do 500 volts x 350 amps at 175 kW before tripping across a whole series of standards as you get near 600 volts. Going above 2 C would be very interesting... we'll see what they sacrificed to get there.

We need a few more data points from Idaho National Labs AVT battery testing:
Library - Alphabetical | Advanced Vehicle Testing Activity

They are likely going to lose funding as part of the DoE cut down by the Trump administration, right as we, as consumers, really need to have independent testing of the batteries in our cars. They are the only ones I know of that does long term cycle testing and then pulls the battery pack off the car and does bench testing to see much more the real effects on the pack versus what the BMS is hiding from us.
 
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Some drive EVs as a statement. Just look at the ride in my Avatar. The Prius, LEAF, iMev, i3 are all statement designs. Honda made a Civic hybrid that was very competitive with the Prius from a spec standpoint, but it didn't sell because the buyers wanted to make a statement: "it ain't easy being green" --Kermit the Frog
The problem is that the EV-as-statement market is relatively small. If EVs hope to break into the mainstream car market (as Tesla hopes to do; not really sure about the traditional car makers in the U.S.), the product needs to appeal to the general public. Even here, note how many members say that they don't really care about the environmental benefits of their Teslas, they bought their cars because of the performance, looks, sticking it to OPEC, whatever.

I still have my gen 1 Prius, which never won any beauty contests. I was proud to drive it and in the early days would get thumbs-ups from other motorists. To me, it was a status symbol of sorts, even though it wasn't a luxury car with voluptuous curves and a throaty engine. While people like us may think hybrids and EVs are a badge of honor, many others view them with derision. Consider how "Prius" has become the butt of jokes and the whipping boy for everything many people don't like about "green" cars and their owners. Those types of jokes and put-downs don't apply to the Tesla.

The beauty of the marketplace is that there are options for a wide range of tastes, needs and budget. That people place value on appearances shouldn't be dismissed just because their perception of a car's visual appeal doesn't coincide with yours. The genius of Tesla's approach is that they produce cars that are easily identifiable to the "green" crowd as well as being able to turn the heads of those who are drawn by the beauty of the design.
 
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Is EM making fun of the ride in my avatar?
Really, who can make fun of the only Florida- (semi)produced 'car'? I freely admit that the brand 'Sebring' had an aspirational ring about it, even though the 'car' itself would barely have the range to get around the track. OTOH, I recall that golf carts and Citicar lookalikes are popular transport options in some US retirement communities, such as Key Biscayne.
Honestly your posts are delightful, partly because i get to see your avatar.:D:cool:
 
Honda made a Civic hybrid that was very competitive with the Prius from a spec standpoint

Incorrect statement.

The Honda hybrid and Honda Insight hybrid lost against the Prius because Honda's series hybrid technology was vastly inferior to the Toyota's HSD and Honda hybrid owners found it difficult to achieve anywhere near the stated figures in real world driving. So they lost on tech and blamed it all on the so called Prius image.
 
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Porsche is touting sustained performance vs. the Tesla 0-60 that can be done no more than twice before the battery needs time to cool. I suspect that Porsche is concentrating on cooling to make faster charging safer for the battery and be able to perform in a continual way.
That's because Porsche has an 'independent franchised dealership' network that they need to support with vehicles that need parts removed and replaced with regularity. Porsche, much like Nissan, doesn't give a flaming fig fart about longevity or durability. If you break it, you bought it, by another. Your problem. If you spent the money to get their stuff, you must have the money to replace it. From their point of view you could have spent the money on a Ferrari instead and had even higher repair costs, not to mention the expense of the trailing pit crew. So, yeah... A Porsche is a bargain compared to some, such as Bugatti.
 
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As far as I know there is exactly 0 BYD registered in Norway. But Kia Soul EV is a popular car here, among "a handful of others" :)
That is my error for so blithely saying '...such as"
BYD is mostly in China with lesser numbers in various Asian markets and a handful in a couple European and US areas, mostly in test fleets. I am not aware of any BYD in operation in very cold climates.
 
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