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Best level 2-3 autonomous car on the market?

Discussion in 'Autonomous Vehicles' started by FaceACA, Aug 25, 2016.

  1. FaceACA

    FaceACA Member

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    I've tried to find comparisons and nothing that I have found is better or even close to Tesla's autopilot. Is this true or am I missing something.

    I'd like to test drive something that comes close or better as a comparison, if that exists.
     
  2. randy1077

    randy1077 Model X60 Vin 180XX. Reverved 8/11/2016

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    Only the 2017 Mercedes E-class is in the same ballpark, but only available currently with a 2.0 turbo engine.
     
  3. Ryan MF

    Ryan MF Member

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  4. fallen888

    fallen888 Member.. hehe, I said "member"

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  5. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Your original assessment is correct. As of right now, there is no car that's anywhere close. AP seems to have almost any freeway situation down pat, and handles many smaller roads fairly well too.

    Mercedes has a more extensive sensor suite in the new E class, and has been hyping it as self driving - but all of the tests say you really don't want to trust it even for the 60 seconds it'll drive for at a time. If they had Tesla's OTA update model, I'd say that those cars will be better than the current AP is in a year or two - but MB doesn't do that.

    What's more, Elon has promised us significant improvements in AP in firmware 8 that's "hopefully going to final review" right now (so maybe out to us next month or the following one?)
     
  6. fallen888

    fallen888 Member.. hehe, I said "member"

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    I just really, really hope that owners without the 2.0 hardware will also reap the benefits of 8.0 AP enhancements. REALLY hope.
     
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  7. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    I thought the Elon quotes were explicitly clear that 8.0 would provide substantial improvements for all AP cars.

    We're still waiting to see whether there's an AP 2.0 (or even 1.5) package coming this year. A car fresh off the truck this week still shows the same windshield cluster as all AP Ss have.
     
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  8. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    You are correct, the only AP system out there that is useable is Tesla's. And it works really well. PLEASE remember that you still have to look ahead and pay attention to look out for things like lane closures, accidents, etc., but even so, it takes all the stress out of stop and go driving, and makes long distance driving a lot less tiring.
     
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  9. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    A big reason why Tesla is so far ahead is their over the air updates. The current AP that we are using is significantly better than when it was released. Unless the other auto companies figure out over the air updates themselves, they will always be behind...
     
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  10. GSP

    GSP Member

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    Tesla appears to have the best level 2 automation so far. Level 2 is just a fancy cruise control that guides the car in two dimensions, instead of just one. This is similar to aircraft autopilots that guide in three dimensions. None of these systems can be relied on to monitor the path ahead to verify it is ok to continue. As Cosmaclef points out, the driver (or pilot) must constantly monitor the path ahead, and take control when evasive action is needed.

    No cars with level 3 automation are currently for sale. With level 3 the system will be capable of monitoring the roadway for hazards, and can be relied on to let the driver know when he/she needs to take over. Hopefully the Model 3 will have this in 2017, but reliability identifying all hazards is a tall order.

    GSP
     
  11. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    I may be somewhat overoptimistic, but after all the discussion of radar point clouds and major improvements, I'm thinking that Tesla is going to work the current AP cars into reliable level 3 over the next year or so. As long as you're restricted to the highway environment, I'm not sure there's any information the current package can't produce that you'd have to have - it's understanding the information (and possibly processor/bandwidth limits?)
     
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  12. Cosmacelf

    Cosmacelf Active Member

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    #12 Cosmacelf, Aug 27, 2016
    Last edited: Aug 27, 2016
    It is tricky, even on highways. For example, you are in a freeway lane and the lane beside you is blocked by an accident, so people in that lane must merge into your lane. People do this by alternating merging - if your car does not know this rule (it is a behavior rule) and relies just on keeping distance between it and the car ahead, it is in danger of crashing into the car that merges in front of you since that driver assumes you will slow down for him. Likewise if you are in the lane that is closed, the AP must know how to merge out of a lane when there is very little gap between cars.
     
  13. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    Didn't say it was going to be easy, or happen in FW 8 in the next couple months - just that I thought it was possible and that Tesla might be going there. :)

    As a level 3 system, AP doesn't have to manage that merge - it just has to realize that the merge is coming several seconds ahead and tell the human "Help, please?"
     
  14. GSP

    GSP Member

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    It is going to be very interesting to see what Tesla can do, and how fast they can do it.

    Even if they can get to level 3 on limited access highways with the current hardware, it still could not change lanes on its own. It also might be confusing to drivers to understand when they must constantly monitor the roadway, and when not. Actually that is a problem today, when they always have to. :eek:

    I bet that Tesla will get to what might be called a "level 2+" with existing hardware. That would be better "co-driver capabilities" like more dependable AEB. I guess we will see what happens.

    GSP
     
  15. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    It's going to be an interesting ride, for sure. Glad I finally got my ticket. :)
     
  16. FaceACA

    FaceACA Member

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    My understanding is that the current AP 1.0 is essentially level 3 on the freeway.
     
  17. Saghost

    Saghost Active Member

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    A few folks who thought that way have found out differently to their detriment. It's good, but it can't promise you that you'll have several seconds of warning before things go south - yet.
     
  18. GSP

    GSP Member

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    FaceACA,

    What limits the current AP 1.0 to level 2 is that it cannot detect stationary objects in the roadway. This includes stationary vehicles, and thngs like rocks, fallen trees, tire casings, furniture that just fell off a truck, large chuckholes, etc. The driver must constantly watch for these hazards, and monitor the autopilot for malfunctions as well.

    AP 1.0 also cannot detect cross traffic, so the driver must do this on non-limited-access highways. Even on limited access highways, the driver must still watch for police or others using the turnarounds, and for large animals like deer, elk, and moose.

    AEB (automatic emergency braking) is included on Teslas and other cars. An agreement between the NHTSA and automakers will result it it being standard on all new cars. It can detect stopped objects, but not all of the time. The classic case is when TACC is tracking a car in front of you, and that car suddenly changes lanes to reveal a stopped car. Even when AEB does detect the stopped object, it's primary goal is to reduce the speed of a collision. It may stop just short of a collision, but not all of the time. It is a backup to the driver, do not rely on it.

    Be careful and enjoy your autopilot. It is the next level of cruise control. Treat it as such and you will be fine.

    GSP
     
  19. FaceACA

    FaceACA Member

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    I don't know of any of these happening on a standard freeway (no cross traffic and a barrier for on coming traffic). If there is, please link as I'd like to educate myself for my own saftey.

    As mentioned in the post above, I worry that the AP is so good it lulls the driver to be less cautious over time and creates more problems than it solves. (NASA recently came out with a study that states the same)

    All more reason to launch AP 2.0 now!!:(
     
  20. chillaban

    chillaban Member

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    Please please please do not assume Autopilot is L3 autonomous on freeways. There is a TMC thread a few months ago that I can't find right now, but the owner had dashcam footage of the car tracking a set of lines 1 foot over instead of correct lane lines, resulting in a sudden swerve towards a nearby car. He was paying attention and grabbed the wheel back.

    It's not an abnormal issue either: Autopilot swerving on freeway with distinct lane markings!


    In this case, the car refused to track a bend on a highway, one that it had tracked successfully on other occasions: Tesla Owner in Autopilot Crash Won’t Sue, But Car Insurer May


    Furthermore, you can find plenty of AP v7.0 and v7.1 videos of near-misses on mostly reasonable roads on Youtube. One of my friends ~2 months ago had a Bay Area Model X test drive that ended with the OA in the back seat screaming. AP on interstate 280 (a well-defined highway) lost track of the lane lines around a curve, started following the car in front to an offramp, and then suddenly decided to swerve back towards the freeway, but in doing so crossed the triangular lane markings dividing the freeway and offramp, thought that was a lane and began accelerating towards a metal divider!

    Bottom line is, it still requires careful supervision. It can handle a lot of situations so well that it seems like a level 3 or better system to you, but if you let your guard down, it will only be a matter of time where the system messes up (tracks the wrong lane lines, doesn't follow a curve, doesn't slow down for someone entering your lane, follows the car in front into a highway exit). On straight or slightly curved roads where you don't have a lot of things you can collide with near you, you can even take your hands off the wheel, but you gotta be prepared to realize and correct any mistakes within a few seconds. What looks like an obvious situation to you as a human driver may look very different to AP's single monochrome fixed-angle camera looking at the road in a different perspective and colorspace!
     
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