The amount of USD
I don’t think that productivity or automation has followed that curve.
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Bitcoin, Cryptocurrency and Blockchain Discussion Thread
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The amount of USD
I don’t think that productivity or automation has followed that curve.
I have heard this arguments many times. IIRC Schiff tried it in the evoorhees debate a page or two back. It is not true. If my salary is set in EUR and I get paid in USD by my boss, USD is still used and this usefulness brings value to all USD tokens. If bitcoin is instantly converted in both sides, the first order effect is a net zero purchase/sale of bitcoin. But the second order effect is an increased usefulness for a pure bitcoin transaction which brings value to the bitcoin token. At some point a user will show up who is not directly converting from USD, the other side of the transaction can still do it, but at least he is not. And he values that his bitcoins are useful even if the other side transacts them instantly. And at some point he or someone else might be paired up with someone who is also not transacting the bitcoin instantly.
When you bootstrap a currency, in the beginning it will be a lot of first order net zero value transactions. But they will still accumulate second order value to the currency. Today we have a lot of first order value in the network, I have sent bitcoins to friends who have sent the bitcoin direct to someone who may or may not have used the bitcoins for something. So clearly since day one, the first order value of the network has grown somehow. All those silly 10000bitcoin sent to somebody who ordered a pizza for him(using USD) where part of adding value to the network. You need to bootstrap it somehow, later the first order value will come.
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As a former miner, I made a good living for a year but tired of the energy spent for the currency of crime and sold off my hardware and coins at the urging of my SO.
Has Elon's investment changed crypto? My SO scolds me at the thought of entering any crypto investment.
Has Elon's investment changed crypto? My SO scolds me at the thought of entering any crypto investment.
Bitcoin mining: a report finds the network mostly runs on renewables - Vox
The argument that bitcoin is crazy "dirty" is a simplification at best.
Side note. I'm really liking blockfi. They are backed by Gemini so they are reasonably safe. Currently getting 6.5% interest on my bitcoin and about the same on my ETH. They will also let you borrow against your crypto at great terms. This is a good option for people like me who have most of their wealth tied up in retirement accounts and can't really borrow against their TSLA. I think a referral gets both people maybe $25 so if you are interested feel free to hit me up.
The argument that bitcoin is crazy "dirty" is a simplification at best.
Side note. I'm really liking blockfi. They are backed by Gemini so they are reasonably safe. Currently getting 6.5% interest on my bitcoin and about the same on my ETH. They will also let you borrow against your crypto at great terms. This is a good option for people like me who have most of their wealth tied up in retirement accounts and can't really borrow against their TSLA. I think a referral gets both people maybe $25 so if you are interested feel free to hit me up.
j6Lpi429@3j
Closed
Are you in the US? not all countries are this slow. I can buy a coffee in the uk using my phone and see my bank balance change on my phone app before the cashier finishes handing me my latte. This 3 day delay business ended over here a while back.
Yes sir. If I use a debit card it is faster. Not sure of the actual time but close enough to instant. That's a different processing network than actual credit cards though.
If I buy anything with a credit card it's stays as a pending charge for a day or so. The merchant doesn't receive the money for a couple days as well. Now that is probably built into the system on purpose to avoid fraud but it is what it is.
When I fund my brokerage account it takes nearly a week for the funds to be available because the ACH system is slow AF. I have recently funded a crypto savings account from my crypto wallet and it took 10 minutes or less per transaction. Much better.
New Ark tweet about BTC. Pretty good information.
https://twitter.com/yassineARK/status/1360343382556483587?s=20
1/ Bitcoin critics continue to assert that mining is wasteful and disproportionately damaging to the environment. Contrary to consensus thinking, we believe the impact of bitcoin mining is a net positive for the environment. Here's why:
2/ First, proof-of-work mining is critical to Bitcoin. In the Bitcoin network, trustworthiness is protected by computation, and mining is what gives Bitcoin its ability to coordinate trust and facilitate the transfer of value without relying on a centralized authority.
3/ The costliness to produce bitcoin is fundamental to its value. Unlike the US dollar, Bitcoin cannot be printed with the stroke of a keyboard. Instead, it converts the output from cheap stranded energy sources into something with monetary value. https://lynalden.com/misconceptions-about-bitcoin/
4/ Even so, Bitcoin’s energy consumption is trivial compared to legacy financial systems. As measured by electricity costs alone, Bitcoin is much more efficient than traditional banking and gold mining on a global scale.
5/ Traditional banking consumes 2.34 B GJ/yr and gold mining 500 M GJ/yr, while Bitcoin consumes 184 M GJ/yr. Additionally, Bitcoin mining’s estimated $ cost / GJ expended is 40x more efficient than that of traditional banking and 10x more efficient than that of gold mining.
6/ Another common mistake energy detractors make is to naively extrapolate Bitcoin’s energy consumption to the equivalent CO2 emissions. What matters is the type of energy source being used to generate electricity.
7/ In reality, renewables account for the largest percentage of bitcoin’s energy mix. In the search for the cheapest form of electricity, miners flock to regions offering a glut of renewable electricity, unlocking stranded energy assets.
8/ In some instances, Bitcoin mining is even helping to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by consuming methane that would have been leaked into the atmosphere via flaring.
9/ "That energy would have been wasted, as is evidenced by the existence of flare stacks. That gas is flared because it can't be brought to market. Bitcoin miners are incentivized to show up and consume that wasted energy." -
@martybent
10/ "If Bitcoin ends up being worth substantially more in the future Bitcoin’s energy expenditure may end up looking rather cheap in the final analysis." -
@nic__carter
11/ Coins only need to be issued once. And it’s better for the planet that they be issued when the coin price was low, and the electricity expended to extract them was commensurately low.
12/ In summary, Bitcoin does not waste energy. It is clear that because Bitcoin’s footprint is so easy to quantify, it is singled out for special treatment. https://unchained-capital.com/blog/bitcoin-does-not-waste-energy/
https://twitter.com/yassineARK/status/1360343382556483587?s=20
1/ Bitcoin critics continue to assert that mining is wasteful and disproportionately damaging to the environment. Contrary to consensus thinking, we believe the impact of bitcoin mining is a net positive for the environment. Here's why:
2/ First, proof-of-work mining is critical to Bitcoin. In the Bitcoin network, trustworthiness is protected by computation, and mining is what gives Bitcoin its ability to coordinate trust and facilitate the transfer of value without relying on a centralized authority.
3/ The costliness to produce bitcoin is fundamental to its value. Unlike the US dollar, Bitcoin cannot be printed with the stroke of a keyboard. Instead, it converts the output from cheap stranded energy sources into something with monetary value. https://lynalden.com/misconceptions-about-bitcoin/
4/ Even so, Bitcoin’s energy consumption is trivial compared to legacy financial systems. As measured by electricity costs alone, Bitcoin is much more efficient than traditional banking and gold mining on a global scale.
5/ Traditional banking consumes 2.34 B GJ/yr and gold mining 500 M GJ/yr, while Bitcoin consumes 184 M GJ/yr. Additionally, Bitcoin mining’s estimated $ cost / GJ expended is 40x more efficient than that of traditional banking and 10x more efficient than that of gold mining.
6/ Another common mistake energy detractors make is to naively extrapolate Bitcoin’s energy consumption to the equivalent CO2 emissions. What matters is the type of energy source being used to generate electricity.
7/ In reality, renewables account for the largest percentage of bitcoin’s energy mix. In the search for the cheapest form of electricity, miners flock to regions offering a glut of renewable electricity, unlocking stranded energy assets.
8/ In some instances, Bitcoin mining is even helping to reduce greenhouse gas emissions by consuming methane that would have been leaked into the atmosphere via flaring.
9/ "That energy would have been wasted, as is evidenced by the existence of flare stacks. That gas is flared because it can't be brought to market. Bitcoin miners are incentivized to show up and consume that wasted energy." -
@martybent
10/ "If Bitcoin ends up being worth substantially more in the future Bitcoin’s energy expenditure may end up looking rather cheap in the final analysis." -
@nic__carter
11/ Coins only need to be issued once. And it’s better for the planet that they be issued when the coin price was low, and the electricity expended to extract them was commensurately low.
12/ In summary, Bitcoin does not waste energy. It is clear that because Bitcoin’s footprint is so easy to quantify, it is singled out for special treatment. https://unchained-capital.com/blog/bitcoin-does-not-waste-energy/
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It sounds like ARK has started watching Dave's content for their research.
I like BTC and I'm happy Tesla bought some... for multiple reasons..
However, I find the inflation argument totally unconvincing for lots of reasons.. the primary ones being the circulation rate of money, the current rate of inflation, and the tendency of most smart people to invest their money, rather than leave it lying around.
I'm not going to get into a debate, I just prefer this type of post to be in the Crypto thread.
corduroy
Active Member
Interesting, especially this: "Additionally, Bitcoin mining’s estimated $ cost / GJ expended is 40x more efficient than that of traditional banking and 10x more efficient than that of gold mining"
https://twitter.com/yassineARK/status/1360343382556483587
https://twitter.com/yassineARK/status/1360343382556483587
MTL_HABS1909
Active Member
There were a few on this board who told us how hypocritical Elon and Tesla were for buying BTC
Only problem with that assessment is that btc's volatility makes it hard to be used as a useful currency so all that energy burned results in very little actual real life usage.
The most efficient bus in the world doesn't mean anything if there's only 1 customer on it being transported.
Who wrote that ARK material @Nocturnal summarized in post #568? It is against my principles and the relationship I have with my clients to divulge specific analyses in this open forum, but there is just too much wrong there, AND from a research house for which I heretofore have had immense respect, not to consider consulting with them - even if it means taking someone behind the woodshed. It's bad, misleading and often just plain wrongly summarized material.
#s 4, 5, 7 and especially 8 & 9 are woefully egregious. #6 is at best misleading. With all that, summary #12 lacks any validity.
"Appeal to Authority" and all that....nevertheless, while my resume may tout my current position as Chief Toilet Scrubber, my doctorate is in Resource Economics and I know whereof I write.
#s 4, 5, 7 and especially 8 & 9 are woefully egregious. #6 is at best misleading. With all that, summary #12 lacks any validity.
"Appeal to Authority" and all that....nevertheless, while my resume may tout my current position as Chief Toilet Scrubber, my doctorate is in Resource Economics and I know whereof I write.
Artful Dodger
"Neko no me"
Any chance that Dojo (soon-to-be World's Largest Supercomputer) can use its spare CPU cycles to find all the remaining BITCOIN? How many are left to mine? What would they be worth at current valuations?You all laugh but I have been holding doge since 2014!
Weekend OT: I built a gaming PC in 2013 and found Dogecoin in early 2014. Long story short I spent a total of two hours mining Dogecoin and decided the returns were laughable. I was awarded 2,107 doge coins worth a whopping 60 cents for my two hours of effort.
If only I knew that I was printing $80 an hour! Hindsight is 20/20
Cheers!
larmor
Active Member
OT and feel free to delete or move... Not sure why no one has gotten a quantum computer, like D Wave, and used that to mine bitcoin. Would basically run the entire blockchain faster than any one else and at the current price of bitcoin would make it break even to profitable...
I don’t know much about it, but if I’m not mistaken Bitcoin is designed such that the last coins will be mined in 2140.
Future miners may have to cool their video cards with boiling seawater.
OK, ignore the last sentence. That was just badmouthing.
I don't buy it.
It's impossible to compare a banking and economic system that, albeit wasteful, is used by billions of people and one that is not used.
BTC is not a currency, and it never will. Do you buy pizzas and coffee with that?
Those who did regret it, as it cost them millions in unrealized gains. So no one will ever do that. I think that, right now, even very few Tesla will be bought with BTC.
Fiat has billions of transactions daily and allow people to work and live. BTC is useless in that regard.
Every BTC bull is saying "bUt BtC wIlL rEpLaCe AlL!": point is, it doesn't now, and it probably won't in the future.
So, thee fact is that, right now, you have one nation worth of CO2 emissions for a few gamblers to create value from nothing.
And you have it *on top* of the current financial system.
Kathy has always argued for BTC, she is quite biased, and I don't think she cares for the environment enough.
Financially, I don't have anything against the BTC move from Tesla.
Environmentally, it is a step back, there is no other way to look at it.
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j6Lpi429@3j
Closed
Yup, I couldnt believe how stupid ARKs anaysis was. BTC uses less energy than the global banking system you say? wow how amazing. Lets compare the energy cost PER TRANSACTION shall we? Absolutely insulting to my intelligence that ark push this.
And also... sure, credit cards are slower than debit cards... but BTC is a debit card. BTC doesn't let you spend money you don't have, so comparing its process time to taking out a short term loan via a credit card makes no sense.
Also, amazingly the global banking system includes loans, mortgages, currency transactions and share dealing. BTC is supporting none of this. Also zero fraud checking, or money laundering checks. No 'lnow your customer' rules. Of course its a stupid, stupid comparison to make.
The mental gymnastics used by people who HAVE bitcoin to try and persuade other people to join the pyramid scheme is staggering. Dont even pretend to care about climate change while holding bitcoin, its absolutely hypocritical to do so. Tesla have lost a ton of respect imho by investing in btc.
And also... sure, credit cards are slower than debit cards... but BTC is a debit card. BTC doesn't let you spend money you don't have, so comparing its process time to taking out a short term loan via a credit card makes no sense.
Also, amazingly the global banking system includes loans, mortgages, currency transactions and share dealing. BTC is supporting none of this. Also zero fraud checking, or money laundering checks. No 'lnow your customer' rules. Of course its a stupid, stupid comparison to make.
The mental gymnastics used by people who HAVE bitcoin to try and persuade other people to join the pyramid scheme is staggering. Dont even pretend to care about climate change while holding bitcoin, its absolutely hypocritical to do so. Tesla have lost a ton of respect imho by investing in btc.
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