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View attachment 638416

I'm not really a Gary fan. He's too self-promoting and like a broken clock is wrong more often than right. But here he's making the same argument that I made a few pages back... that Bitcoin will fall more than equities during a market crash and therefore is not a hedge.

Sincerely interested in understanding the rebuttal to this. What am I missing?

Not sure if Bitcoin behaves exactly the opposite and positively correlates with a downward markets. Over the last decade the market has been up and bitcoin has been mega up. Don’t think we can draw much conclusions from this and certainly not the one he draws


upload_2021-2-21_8-41-39.png

Imo what we can tell is that Bitcoin has grown independently of gold. But events that make people doubt the dollar tend to lead to increase the value of stocks, properties, gold and Bitcoin with some different multiplier for each. Bitcoin as it has a goal to replace the dollar, tends to get the higher multiplier. But it is too compliated.

Imo this feels like “I already know the what, here are some random explanations for the why”.
 
View attachment 638416

I'm not really a Gary fan. He's too self-promoting and like a broken clock is wrong more often than right. But here he's making the same argument that I made a few pages back... that Bitcoin will fall more than equities during a market crash and therefore is not a hedge.

Sincerely interested in understanding the rebuttal to this. What am I missing?

Substitute gold for BTC and you have ONE use case for BTC. BTC can just as easily act as a flight to quality, it’s just a matter of a critical mass of buyers agreeing to it playing that role the way that they currently have for gold. Some say gold has commercial utility which gives it value, but what many ignore in that equation is that the amount of gold currently in electronics is already sufficient supply and recyclable to be a closed loop (ie we don’t need to actually mine more once recycling methods are efficient enough).

If (dare I say, when) BTC also becomes a widespread accepted form of settlement of liabilities (form of payment), it achieves something gold hasn’t done in nearly a century (thanks Roosevelt), and takes on completely different commercial utility. It becomes both store of value and accepted currency.
 
View attachment 638416

I'm not really a Gary fan. He's too self-promoting and like a broken clock is wrong more often than right. But here he's making the same argument that I made a few pages back... that Bitcoin will fall more than equities during a market crash and therefore is not a hedge.

Sincerely interested in understanding the rebuttal to this. What am I missing?

Well...even gold fell off a cliff in March. Everyone was hoarding cash because we had no idea what the world would look like with widespread rona. So yah that's not really a good example.

Bitcoin has acted like a high beta stock because it's still in the price discovery mode, and probably will be for the next 5-8 years. People who are investing in it now are looking at the steady-state future when Bitcoin is either a reference asset and/or a secondary currency for many countries. When Bitcoin's at like $1.5 million or so it will gain a lot of those properties.

Right now it's highly speculative, so in the short run it will have more drastic drops. But if you look at the March drop, Bitcoin recovered much faster than the market. And as institutions start loading up on Bitcoin, it gains more downside protection (I'm not anticipating anymore 80% drops in Bitcoin).
 
Yeesh...what a waste of resources. From electricity to buying all that equipment which will be replaced and end up in a landfill. I wouldn’t mind if cryptocurrency went away completely.


It is interesting to consider the experience of crypto and the Knights Templar. A wealthy Lord could deliver gold to the local KT. They would provide a coded message script that could be redeemed for gold (minus a fee) once the traveling Lord arrived in the Holy Land. This facilitated safe transportation for the wealthy. Something like a gold backed private currency. The Knights became so wealthy they became a threat and one Friday the 13th it did not end well.
 
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It is interesting to consider the experience of crypto and the Knights Templar. A wealthy Lord could deliver gold to the local KT. They would provide a coded message script that could be redeemed for gold (minus a fee) once the traveling Lord arrived in the Holy Land. This facilitated safe transportation for the wealthy. Something like a gold backed private currency. The Knights became so wealthy they became a threat and one Friday the 13th it did not end well.

Not a great look to use Dan Brown as a source of historical events
 
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Not a great look to use Dan Brown as a source of historical events
LMAO? Everything he stated was historical fact.

Knights Templar - Wikipedia

The only part he omitted is that the Knights Templar continued to exist to this day and are engaged in a war with another secret society which also supposedly ceased to exist in ancient times, the Hashashin (Assassins).
~~~In-post Mod Warning: Better not go here. This thread already is threatening to derail itself. Back on track, all - thank you.~~~
 
since we are speculating so much, I got another explanation of Elon's "metafork". He seems to be pretty consumed with Crypto at the moment, so what if he is thinking about Ethereum and its hard forking with ETH 2.0?
What if he gets involved with it somehow?
 
I'm becoming increasingly persuaded that bitcoin will become a significant reserve asset class for corporate treasuries. This is set out well in the following links.

Why Corporate Treasurers May Consider Bitcoin
Bitcoin Macro Strategy with Michael Saylor and Ross Stevens

In particular, I see corporate and bank treasuries using digital assets as collateral. For example, if Tesla needed to borrow $1B overnight, it can deploy, say $1.2B in BTC as collateral. This collateral is easily liquidated 24/7/365 in the case of failure to pay back the loan. But otherwise, Tesla avoids capital gains implied in simply selling $1B in BTC to cover the overnight need for cash.

Secondarily it is useful that BTC holds value long term. Over the last few years BTC and TSLA has gained value at a comparable rate. This means that if Tesla holds BTC in lieu of excess cash, this does not dilute the stock. No one expects the return on treasury asset to rival the return on operational assets in a company, but a healthy return does avoid the situation where the shareholder is better served by a stock buy back than for the company to sit on excess cash. If Bitcoin grows at a minimum of 10%, then Tesla does much better holding any conventional reserve assets. Volatility to the upside is no problem. Tesla is already 60% ahead with it's $1.5T purchase of BTC, so it can tolerate substantial downside volatility and still come out better than hold cash equivalents.

Kathie Wood has mentioned that if major corporate treasuries simply held 10% of their reserve assets as BTC, this would add $200,000 to the value of 1 BTC. At $56,000/BTC, the market cap is now about $1.034T. At $256k/BTC, the market cap of BTC goes to $4.74T. The extra $3.7T in value is simply 10% of the some $37 in assets that corporate treasuries hold. The notion of scarcity here is simply that the supply of BTC is non-responsive to demand. Thus, if global corporations moved to hold a certain fraction of their treasury reserves as BTC, that demand would directly inflate the value of BTC.

For example, to see why this matters. Consider the mortgage crisis in 2008. Mortgage-backed securities were in very high demand. They were seen as safe investments. But demand for high quality bonds was so high that it incentivized mortgage lenders fill MBS with a lot of low quality loans. The supply of MBSs rose to meet demand and shift homeownership rates to historic highs. But this cheap financing lead to overpriced home values, above sustainable levels. Economic weakness led to the collapse of the entire housing bubble.

The point here is that demand for financial assets needs an outlet that does not lead to glut whether that be MBSs and homes, or oil and gas. Using physical commodities as financialied assets to "hedge" inflation is a really bad idea from an environmental impact point of view it not also from the viewpoint of creating major economic dislocations like the mortgage crisis. Bitcoin and other digital assets do not increase the supply of those assets in response to demand.

So as corporations experiment with adding bitcoin and other digital assets, there will be an initial inflation in BTC market cap, but eventually other treasury assets will need to become more attractive relative to digital assets to reach some equilibrium. Bitcoin can safely store value without creating gluts and other dislocations when businesses need safe value storage. But as the global economy heats up and needs more cash invested in other things, perhaps some of that comes out of the bitcoin market cap. But this downside is not really a problem, if there are higher return alternatives to invest in. For example, if Tesla had an opportunity to do something better than hold BTC, it would do it, and shareholders would be glad to liquidate some BTC. Corporations around the world would face similar opportunities. Thus, bitcoin market cap can keep growing until better investment opportunities come along.

I see Bitcoin as essentially a parking lot for surplus corporate cash. Banks and corporate treasuries can trade these tokens amongst each other so as to meet needs for liquidity.

These view are my own and do not reflect the views of my employer.
 
Bitcoin’s Market Capitalization Crosses $1 Trillion For the First Time
By Yassine Elmandjra | @yassineARK

Bitcoin’s total market capitalization, or network value, crossed $1 trillion for the first time on Friday as its price passed $54,000. Despite its run, ARK’s analysis suggests that bitcoin is early on its path to monetization. In our view, bitcoin’s current $1 trillion network value could scale to $6 trillion during the next five years.
...
As the cornerstone of a new asset class, bitcoin seems to have earned an allocation in investment portfolios. As a result, capital allocators should consider the opportunity cost of ignoring it.


from ARK Disrupt newsletter
 
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/22/yellen-sounds-warning-about-extremely-inefficient-bitcoin.html

“I don’t think that bitcoin … is widely used as a transaction mechanism,” she told CNBC’s Andrew Ross Sorkin at the New York Times’ “DealBook” conference. “To the extent it is used I fear it’s often for illicit finance. It’s an extremely inefficient way of conducting transactions, and the amount of energy that’s consumed in processing those transactions is staggering
 
https://www.cnbc.com/2021/02/22/yellen-sounds-warning-about-extremely-inefficient-bitcoin.html

“I don’t think that bitcoin … is widely used as a transaction mechanism,” she told CNBC’s Andrew Ross Sorkin at the New York Times’ “DealBook” conference. “To the extent it is used I fear it’s often for illicit finance. It’s an extremely inefficient way of conducting transactions, and the amount of energy that’s consumed in processing those transactions is staggering
It is telling that Yellen speak of bitcoin as medium of exchange. That really underestimates the potential value bitcoin can hold.

Also see this one: Federal Reserve Bank President James Bullard Confident Bitcoin Not a Threat to US Dollar – Regulation Bitcoin News

Could it be that Biden Administration is a little threatened by bitcoin? Maybe. Efforts to stimulate the economy whether monetary or fiscal can loose some of their economic impact in the face of bitcoin.

Basically, when you try to inject cash into the economy you want it to wander into consumer spending and business investment. But if that injection of cash goes into pumping up the likes of bitcoin, how is that supposed to energize the economy? One of the really big macro risks of bitcoin is that it could undermine the ability of central banks and national governments to stimulate the economy. To avoid making bitcoin a massive $10T or more global asset, central bankers may need to work on keeping interest rates up rather than down.
 
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Basically, when you try to inject cash into the economy you want it to wander into consumer spending and business investment. But if that injection of cash goes into pumping up the likes of bitcoin, how is that supposed to energize the economy? One of the really big macro risks of bitcoin is that it could undermine the ability of central banks and national governments to stimulate the economy. To avoid making bitcoin a massive $10T or more global asset, central bankers may need to work on keeping interest rates up rather than down.

It's only a matter of time until Bitcoin hits $10T.

Paraphrasing Michael Saylor: "If you want an asset that floats on the pool of fiat liquidity- Bitcoin is the answer."
 
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The main thread has helped me understand so much more about the bond market and the yields. Here is my understanding.

The yield for bond market ( 100 Trillion dollar market, i.e. about 3-4 times the stock market) has been rising up (about 0.5-1%) since a week in anticipation that Fed would hike their rates. . An interest rate would obviously correct/crash the stock market because more money will flood the bond market rather than chasing the riskier stock market.

Now what does that mean for Crypto? I think Crypto market is very much correlated to the stock market. So if stock market corrects, crypto would also correct. However, therein lies the catch, the reason why Fed MIGHT increase the rates would be because there is an increase in Inflation. But increase in inflation is good for BTC, so BTC should technically be helped when the stock market is busy crashing due to Fed's increase in rates. Such a conundrum

We will get to know more tomorrow when Jerome powell tells us whether they are increasing the rates or not. Either way, if the Fed increases the rates, then higher inflation should help BTC, but if they don't increase the rates, the markets would be euphoric and BTC should increase. Both ways, I see it as a win-win for BTC in the mid-term. The crazy manipulation we saw today now makes a lot more sense to me. Flush out the new retailers and let BTC go higher

However, there is ample proof that BTC dances to the stock market's tune, so if they announce tomorow that they are increasing the rates, it will crash the stock market. The million dollar question is, do the big dogs agree that BTC is an inflation hedge and buy BTC while the stock market is crashing?