BMW i3

[surfingslovak]

Some random web surfing...

Leaf surviving a fire, but apparently not the battery:
Nissan Leaf Battery Pack Survives Massive Fire!

So much for "zero reports of fires involving a Nissan LEAF".

If you had dug a little deeper, you would find, that this LEAF was involved in the Colorado blaze, which destroyed entire neighborhoods last summer. Below is the relevant MNL thread on the topic. I've been very actively involved in the LEAF community for some time now, and I'm pretty confident that no amount of googling will uncover a battery fire in customer hands, because there were none.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Burned out Leaf

 

[brianman]

If you would dug a little deeper, you would find, that this LEAF was involved in the Colorado blaze, which destroyed entire neighborhoods last summer. Below is the relevant MNL thread on the topic. I've been very actively involved in the LEAF community for some time now, and I'm pretty confident that no amount of googling will uncover a battery fire in customer hands, because there were none.

My Nissan Leaf Forum View topic - Burned out Leaf

I guess we use the word "involving" differently.

 

[surfingslovak]

I guess we use the word "involving" differently.

You seem to prefer to play a game of semantics instead of substantiating the claim you made up-thread. Be my guest. I don't know about you, but I have better things to do with my time.

And to address some of the discussion up-thread: nearly all mass-manufactured EVs use a manganese spinel cathode (or its derivatives). This has been traditionally regarded to be a safe choice for automotive applications because of the thermal properties this lithium-ion battery sub-type exhibits. This design decision has its downsides, such as lower energy density, and sensitivity to ambient temperatures.

Tesla pushed the envelope in terms of innovation, and they potentially took on a larger risk, simply because one necessitated the other. That said, to start a discussion about battery fires, and how that will affect the i3 is not very appropriate or even relevant, given how other EVs, which use a similar battery chemistry, have performed in the field over the last three years.

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BMW is saying demand for its new i3 electric car is exceeding its expectations -- and now it's considering a boost in production. In this segment of Motor Money, analysts Rex Moore and John Rosevear discuss whether electric cars are finally getting some traction, and what this development means for Tesla's (Nasdaq: TSLA) future plans.

 

[brianman]

You seem to prefer to play a game of semantics instead of substantiating the claim you made up-thread. Be my guest. I don't know about you, but I have better things to do with my time.

Sigh. I prefer people to say what they mean and then mean what they say. When their phrasing is proven to be inaccurate, it's preferred to own up to it and then proceed to a more productive accurate discussion. Hiding behind accusations like "game of semantics" is just a way of saying "I was loose in my language, so don't call me on it."

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substantiating the claim you made up-thread.

Further, I didn't make a claim. I made reference to an observation that someone else made in a different thread that I haven't had enough time to go dig up. Also searching for "Leaf" and "fire" on TMC isn't a fast process for finding the post that I'm remembering. Otherwise I would have already linked it. I have a loose recollection it might have been one of the Dougs correcting me when I implied the same thing you were (no fire incidents on records for Leaf or Volt) which is why I replied to the comments on the topic here in the first place.

 

[surfingslovak]

Sigh. I prefer people to say what they mean and then mean what they say. When their phrasing is proven to be inaccurate, it's preferred to own up to it and then proceed to a more productive accurate discussion. Hiding behind accusations like "game of semantics" is just a way of saying "I was loose in my language, so don't call me on it."

I was responding to the following statements made right above my post in this thread. How you can interpret what I said about "zero reports of fires involving a Nissan LEAF" the way you did in this context is difficult for me to understand. To be honest, I would consider this whole debate to be inappropriate for this thread to begin with, and I would prefer if it stopped, as it does nothing for the folks following this thread.

I wonder how the media's going to treat BMW the first time one of these crashes and burns?

(why do I always have to be the Debbie downer lol)

You know what'd be funny though from an EV perspective, and I'm sure it'll happen at some point, but what the take will be when one of these gets into an accident and that lawnmower engine and gasoline gets punctured and ignites yet the battery pack is fine...maybe that'll convince the public of why all gasoline powered cars are dangerous! The new Ford Pinto (and subsequently the new Jeep Cherokee) will be all petrol powered cars!

I suppose it will eventually happen, but don't assume it will as quickly as it has with the Model S. There are 50,000 volts and 40,000 LEAF on the roads in the US and they have have been driving and being crashed for three years now without a single fire. I fully expect the i3 to behave similarly.

My understanding (from a previous TMC post) is that this is incorrect.

Further, I didn't make a claim. I made reference to an observation that someone else made in a different thread that I haven't had enough time to go dig up. Also searching for "Leaf" and "fire" on TMC isn't a fast process for finding the post that I'm remembering. Otherwise I would have already linked it. I have a loose recollection it might have been one of the Dougs correcting me when I implied the same thing you were (no fire incidents on records for Leaf or Volt) which is why I replied to the comments on the topic here in the first place.

Thanks for clarifying that. This is precisely the information I was looking for. I'm confident that no battery fires have been observed with the Nissan LEAF. Not even in the wake of natural disasters. The Colorado blaze is a rare exception. I remember it being discussed on MNL when this LEAF showed up in an auction listing. As already said, I don't believe this discussion to be of any relevance to this thread, aside from the fact that the i3 might use cathode material comparable to what's in the LEAF. I also think that the steel container, albeit heavy, does help protect the cells in the LEAF. The i3 uses an aluminum enclosure, which should be significantly lighter, but potentially also less rugged. We will see how the i3 does in terms of accident safety.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

BMW i3 declassified: Why the Bavarian Motor Works' little EV has big potential | The Car Tech blog - CNET Reviews

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

Spoiler alert: The reviewer kind of fancies it…

 

[JST]

Spoiler alert: The reviewer kind of fancies it…

It's just a really unpleasant looking car. I don't want to be shallow, but I don't think I could bring myself to drive something that looked like that.

 

[SwedishAdvocate]

It's just a really unpleasant looking car. I don't want to be shallow, but I don't think I could bring myself to drive something that looked like that.

I guess it kind of defines hipster mobile (the somewhat affluent edition)…

I could drive it. But it would have to have more range than all the other alternatives… And it would only be because of lack of alternatives.

 

[AEdennis]

It's just a really unpleasant looking car. I don't want to be shallow, but I don't think I could bring myself to drive something that looked like that.

JST... I am a BMW fan.

I drive an Active E and my previous three vehicles were ICE BMWs. I am able to make 80-100 miles work for me every day in an Active E (have done so for over 47,000 miles in 20 months of driving).

We went with Tesla for the aesthetics and the range.

At the end of the day, any money you spend in a vehicle should fit all your criteria, including aesthetics. And that aesthetic has been the challenge for me. I prefer EVs that are styled the way I expect cars to look like. I intellectually understand that because there is no engine, we don't need as much front area in the vehicle. However, it doesn't have to be stubby.

You're not shallow, you just have an aesthetic you would rather spend your money on.

 

[gene]

It's just a really unpleasant looking car. I don't want to be shallow, but I don't think I could bring myself to drive something that looked like that.

I live fairly close to a BMW design firm here in Ventura County, California. I see one of these on the road every couple of days or so. I can just barely "get used" to the looks of it. The i3 makes the Leaf (especially in white) look nice by comparison. The Fiat 500e in grey looks really nice! I wish success to every last EV that comes out. The more EV's, the more people get used to the idea, the better for everyone!

 

[Mr X]

It's just a really unpleasant looking car. I don't want to be shallow, but I don't think I could bring myself to drive something that looked like that.

Would take it over the Leaf or Spark in a millisecond



it looks good from the front/sides

 

[PokerBroker]

I would take it over a Leaf/Fiat/Volt/Focus but it isn't really a competitor to the Model S. I wish it all the success in the world.

 

[JST]

JST... I am a BMW fan.

I drive an Active E and my previous three vehicles were ICE BMWs. I am able to make 80-100 miles work for me every day in an Active E (have done so for over 47,000 miles in 20 months of driving).

We went with Tesla for the aesthetics and the range.

At the end of the day, any money you spend in a vehicle should fit all your criteria, including aesthetics. And that aesthetic has been the challenge for me. I prefer EVs that are styled the way I expect cars to look like. I intellectually understand that because there is no engine, we don't need as much front area in the vehicle. However, it doesn't have to be stubby.

You're not shallow, you just have an aesthetic you would rather spend your money on.

I've been a big BMW fan, too. I was hoping that the i3 wouldn't be so...awkward, stylistically. But, really, now that Tesla has shown us that you can make an electric car drive like a BMW is supposed to, I was hoping that it would lean a bit more in the sporting direction, and a bit less in the "upright city car" direction.

But BMW has been making choices recently that I haven't agreed with that have nothing to do with electric motors. The fact that I can't see myself buying 3 series anymore (it would be my 8th? 9th? Something like that) says a lot more about BMW than the i3 does.

 

[gregincal]

Tesla pushed the envelope in terms of innovation, and they potentially took on a larger risk, simply because one necessitated the other. That said, to start a discussion about battery fires, and how that will affect the i3 is not very appropriate or even relevant, given how other EVs, which use a similar battery chemistry, have performed in the field over the last three years.

Except that there's one other design difference besides battery chemistry. Tesla's battery is more vulnerable to road debris because of the skateboard platform, which neither the Volt or the Leaf have but the i3 does.

 

[tftf]

I think the main innovation of the "i" series is the use of carbon fibre, not "just" the battery or the EV drive:

BMW Bets on Carbon-Fiber Bodies for Cars - Businessweek

Quite amazing seeing this material in mass production imo, this was the stuff of supercars and race cars a few years ago.

BMW is also doing quite a lot for the infrasctructure.

BMW is for example requiring its i dealers to add fast chargers (CCS standard) in Europe. I guess this will be the same in the US?

This could finally help the CCS (Sae Combo) plug gain some traction before other compatible models arrive from VW etc.

 

[ecarfan]

I think the main innovation of the "i" series is the use of carbon fibre, not "just" the battery or the EV drive:

BMW Bets on Carbon-Fiber Bodies for Cars - Businessweek

Quite amazing seeing this material in mass production imo, this was the stuff of supercars and race cars a few years ago.

That article has a link to a video titled something like "BMW Brings Carbon Fiber to the Masses". At the 2:14 time in that video it shows the exposed chassis of the i3 and the shape and location of the battery pack. The pack is flat and forms the floor of the vehicle, much like the Model S.

Once the i3 is on the road in significant numbers (late 2015?) it will be interesting to see what happens when the car runs over some nasty metal road debris and if the BMW battery design and software can handle the impact as safely as the Model S does. I suspect that right now BMW is trying to replicate i3 road debris impacts on their test track!

 

[JST]

Can I just say one more thing about the i3? It has those dumb, dumb, stupid, really super awful, hateful, rear opening "suicide" doors, like on a MINI Clubman.

Why do I hate these doors? Try using them in a crowded parking lot where the car next to you is parked super close, especially if you are trying to get a wiggling toddler and gear out of the back seat. You end up trapped in a weird door trapezoid that seems impossible to extricate yourself from.

 

[gg_got_a_tesla]

Can I just say one more thing about the i3? It has those dumb, dumb, stupid, really super awful, hateful, rear opening "suicide" doors, like on a MINI Clubman.

Why do I hate these doors? Try using them in a crowded parking lot where the car next to you is parked super close, especially if you are trying to get a wiggling toddler and gear out of the back seat. You end up trapped in a weird door trapezoid that seems impossible to extricate yourself from.

Aye! Long suffering Clubman owner here. Gen 3 can't come soon enough.

 

[60TTuC]

BMW i3 Design, Especially Its Doors, Requires A Learning Curve | PluginCars.com