Braking distance concern by Consumer Reports

[mongo]

Doesn't that freak out anybody that our ability to break or speed up can be drastically changed with one software push? What if the pusher is malicious or a mistake is made?
I'm all for improving windshield wipers or mirrors, but this is actually kind of scary... I'm really hoping they have proper security measures in place. B/c if something bad happens due to a software push that will be the end of Tesla. Or end of OTA updates for all future manufacturers.

Nope, I'd rather have the ability to fix SW that is broken than not.
If you want to be concerned: how do you know the original non-updatable software in any OEM's vehicle is correct?
For any microprocessor controlled device, at some point, the code goes on as written compiled...

 

[jamnmon66]

I actually like the exchange between CR and Elon. In summary:

• CR found a safety problem that, for whatever reason, didn't get caught yet. They fairly called out Tesla for a potential safety issue.
• Elon responded very quickly and took responsibility to look at it and fix it if necessary up to and including replacing hardware at no cost to the customers.
• After looking into it, Elon admitted the issue, promised a fix and requested a re-test from CR.
• CR committed to re-test after they received the fix.

Both sides are doing what they're supposed to do. Both made promises that they still need to follow up with. Both are credible and will very likely follow through.

I've always been a fan of CR but I realize certain things about them that I use to filter their recommendations. I strongly trust anything that they say that is measurable... such as stopping distances. I also put a lot of credence into their reliability surveys. Both have served me well over the years and I have never had a reason not to trust them.

But, their reviews are just informed opinions (like any other source of reviews) and they are VERY conservative about their recommendations, particularly about cars. They always have been. It makes sense to me, based on what I've observed from them over the years, that they don't like the touch screen controls on the 3. On those types of things, they're reviewing for the general public that treats cars like appliances, not for enthusiasts like many of us in here. I am a car enthusiast and a tech enthusiast so the 3 is the PERFECT car for me. But, unlike me, most people won't obsess over every little detail of the car & the UI and it's probably a good thing that this type of dramatic change is emphasized to that crowd.

 

[S4WRXTTCS]

I actually like the exchange between CR and Elon. In summary:

• CR found a safety problem that, for whatever reason, didn't get caught yet. They fairly called out Tesla for a potential safety issue.
• Elon responded very quickly and took responsibility to look at it and fix it if necessary up to and including replacing hardware at no cost to the customers.
• After looking into it, Elon admitted the issue, promised a fix and requested a re-test from CR.
• CR committed to re-test after they received the fix.

Both sides are doing what they're supposed to do. Both made promises that they still need to follow up with. Both are credible and will very likely follow through.

I've always been a fan of CR but I realize certain things about them that I use to filter their recommendations. I strongly trust anything that they say that is measurable... such as stopping distances. I also put a lot of credence into their reliability surveys. Both have served me well over the years and I have never had a reason not to trust them.

But, their reviews are just informed opinions (like any other source of reviews) and they are VERY conservative about their recommendations, particularly about cars. They always have been. It makes sense to me, based on what I've observed from them over the years, that they don't like the touch screen controls on the 3. On those types of things, they're reviewing for the general public that treats cars like appliances, not for enthusiasts like many of us in here. I am a car enthusiast and a tech enthusiast so the 3 is the PERFECT car for me. But, unlike me, most people won't obsess over every little detail of the car & the UI and it's probably a good thing that this type of dramatic change is emphasized to that crowd.

I completely agree, and it seems like the media overstates the conflict between Tesla and CR. Sure they have different opinion about Autopilot, and specifically the name. But, it's not like they're going to agree on everything.

 

[Krugerrand]

It is very realistic and interesting to compare the 0-60 time and 60-0 breaking distance on a Tesla to similarly sized gas and electric vehicles in its class. People definitely want to know how these cars compare to gas vehicles as well as a F150 including driver/passengers comfort, driving dynamics, ease of use...

No they don’t. YOU might but the average person has no idea what the stopping distance is for their current car. Go ahead, walk down a random street, in a random city and ask 100 random people what the emergency stopping distance from 60 - 0 is on their current car. You’ll be lucky if one person knows it.

Most though will be able to tell you how many cupholders and clothes hooks exist.

 

[Krugerrand]

Doesn't that freak out anybody that our ability to break or speed up can be drastically changed with one software push? What if the pusher is malicious or a mistake is made?
I'm all for improving windshield wipers or mirrors, but this is actually kind of scary... I'm really hoping they have proper security measures in place. B/c if something bad happens due to a software push that will be the end of Tesla. Or end of OTA updates for all future manufacturers.

Nope. Not even a little concerned. I happily embrace advancement of technologies and the inherent risks that go with them. But then I’m someone who doesn’t live in fear. And I heart this car like no other. It’s amazing.

 

[u00mem9]

I actually like the exchange between CR and Elon. In summary:

• CR found a safety problem that, for whatever reason, didn't get caught yet. They fairly called out Tesla for a potential safety issue.
• Elon responded very quickly and took responsibility to look at it and fix it if necessary up to and including replacing hardware at no cost to the customers.
• After looking into it, Elon admitted the issue, promised a fix and requested a re-test from CR.
• CR committed to re-test after they received the fix.

Or more accurately:
-CR demonstrates the brake development wasn’t completed before vehicles are sold to the public
-Tesla claims the result is wrong
-Elon is internally informed how things go when OEMs try to pull out the PR crap with CR (see Honda for an example)
-Elon says they will finish development and then flash the vehicles currently owned by test drivers
-CR lets Tesla know that they will follow up in the claim, and publish a retest result.

 

[mongo]

Or more accurately:
-CR demonstrates the brake development wasn’t completed before vehicles are sold to the public
-Tesla claims the result is wrong
-Elon is internally informed how things go when OEMs try to pull out the PR crap with CR (see Honda for an example)
-Elon says they will finish development and then flash the vehicles currently owned by test drivers
-CR lets Tesla know that they will follow up in the claim, and publish a retest result.

You are 65% percent inaccurate.
CR showed a problem caused by a non-typical use case
Tesla did not say CR was wrong, only that the data didn't match previous testing (media contact gave some possible reasons)
Elon said this didn't line up with their results, said they would fix it even if HW, and then less than 3 hours later tweeted a resolution path.

 

[jamnmon66]

You are 65% percent inaccurate.
CR showed a problem caused by a non-typical use case
Tesla did not say CR was wrong, only that the data didn't match previous testing (media contact gave some possible reasons)
Elon said this didn't line up with their results, said they would fix it even if HW, and then less than 3 hours later tweeted a resolution path.

LOL. How did you come to 65% and not 33% or 71%?

Agree with your post BTW.

 

[Daniel in SD]

You are 65% percent inaccurate.
CR showed a problem caused by a non-typical use case
Tesla did not say CR was wrong, only that the data didn't match previous testing (media contact gave some possible reasons)
Elon said this didn't line up with their results, said they would fix it even if HW, and then less than 3 hours later tweeted a resolution path.

You should be a PR guy for Takata. That was a non typical use case! 99% of customers never use the airbags!

 

[PhantomX]

You are 65% percent inaccurate.
CR showed a problem caused by a non-typical use case
Tesla did not say CR was wrong, only that the data didn't match previous testing (media contact gave some possible reasons)
Elon said this didn't line up with their results, said they would fix it even if HW, and then less than 3 hours later tweeted a resolution path.

Not sure if this can be said as a non-typical use case though. The overnight pause between 1st and 2nd tests are no different if one had an emergency braking event one night and then have another one next. It's rare, but I would say it shouldn't be classified as non-typical.

Also, they better make sure back-to-back hard braking performance is consistent if Tesla wants Performance Model 3 to beat a BMW M3 on the track.

 

[voip-ninja]

You are 65% percent inaccurate.
CR showed a problem caused by a non-typical use case
Tesla did not say CR was wrong, only that the data didn't match previous testing (media contact gave some possible reasons)
Elon said this didn't line up with their results, said they would fix it even if HW, and then less than 3 hours later tweeted a resolution path.

You don't think it's a typical use case that someone will ever panic stop with the car from 60mph more than once over the life of the car?

Because that's pretty much what they couldn't get to work.

 

[Moderatefan]

If you want to be concerned: how do you know the original non-updatable software in any OEM's vehicle is correct?

Usually, the car you buy have been tested by many drivers and is not going to change on you.
Now imagine a ton of people just received simultaneously a firmware update that includes a change from a terrorist, who coded smth like "disable brakes after 5 min of driving" or, to prevent any warning, "disable brakes at 8am PST"

This is a new reality and I hope security concerns are taken seriously.

 

[Nick's Life]

I was so obsessed about this I made a video showing all the issues and compares some of them between the Model 3 and an Audi A7.

 

[EV-lutioin]

To increase range, Tesla recommends unusually high tire pressure for the Model 3 (45 psi), could these high pressures contribute to the increased braking distances found by CR?

 

[Brando]

It looks like it is software limited. I’d be curious to know why Tesla does this. This is not rocket science. CR has loads of experience doing this testing and their reputation is on the line here. If they are putting out false reports then Tesla should be sending a rebuttal shortly. The fact that Tesla chose to respond the way they did says a lot. I think Tesla owes the public and current owners a valid response. When early adopters like all of us buy a car without even driving it first we expect it to be reasonably safe. Inconsistent braking is not safe.

I never bought a car without doing a panic stop. Then I measured the skid starting point to my stopped car. Sadly, the car salesman often got up set. And with used cars, the owners often got up set. I also required one tank of gas to test the fuel economy. side note: checking tire pressure to get best stopping performance too.

 

[Brando]

I was so obsessed about this I made a video showing all the issues and compares some of them between the Model 3 and an Audi A7.

Mirrors and vents - pick the one you like - a deciding factor? I doubt it.
Rear seat sitting? for some it may be important. again, pick the one you like.
Never going to gas station again? No oil changes? No tune ups? Quickest to pass? Now if I can get past the ONLY 130 mph or so.
I'd better check CR and see what they do/don't recommend, as I just can't decide.
I guess I'd better add a </sarcastic> alert. Don't wish to offend anyone. ;-) choices are so hard - why do we need all this competition?

This braking thing is very curious. We shall see.

 

[Brando]

I'm not concerned about it. I was simply stating 20 ft is significant. Not trivial. Do you think 20 ft is trivial?

actually no. Any speed above 55 is wasteful and more dangerous. Do you consider that trivial? That is why I usually stay in the slow lane and do 55. just me.

 

[mrsandman]

Doesn't that freak out anybody that our ability to break or speed up can be drastically changed with one software push? What if the pusher is malicious or a mistake is made?
I'm all for improving windshield wipers or mirrors, but this is actually kind of scary... I'm really hoping they have proper security measures in place. B/c if something bad happens due to a software push that will be the end of Tesla. Or end of OTA updates for all future manufacturers.

No. It does not freak me out. I knew this coming in that the car was like a big iphone, just like I knew this wasn’t a hatchback, just like I knew this wasn’t a Model S, just like I knew this used a touchscreen for most controls, just like many other things that I knew at the reveal before I put the deposit down. Now inconsistent braking? That’s not what any reasonable person would expect and that’s why Elon had to respond the way he did. Any other response and the company would be taking a huge hit.

 

[Brando]

I am curious, does Tesla do any track test besides the one they have in Fremont? Most of the major manufacturers have their large proving grounds to push their cars hard, and many of them also go to Nurburgring to test their cars. This brake consistency issue should have popped up if the car has been pushed on a track repeatedly.

There are many "testing" tracks around the world. Here is one example. Internet search will provide others.
ZF, TRW Make Powerhouse Technology Team

 

[Brando]

Is this correct? 1.5 seconds is an eternity and I can't see even an elderly person having that slow of a reaction time.

Reaction times vary greatly with situation and from person to person between about 0.7 to 3 seconds (sec or s) or more. Some accident reconstruction specialists use 1.5 seconds. A controlled study in 2000 (IEA2000_ABS51.pdf) found average driver reaction brake time to be 2.3 seconds.