Tesla can try to obfuscate it much as they want but here's how you do it: put the car on a dyno, measure the HP, account for drive train loss and you have your HP. It really is that simple.
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Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter
- Thread starter kseitzberg
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- Driving Dynamics Model S
Tesla can try to obfuscate it much as they want but here's how you do it: put the car on a dyno, measure the HP, account for drive train loss and you have your HP. It really is that simple.
It will indeee be shaped by public opinion. And if public opinion is that the government is subsidizing super-cars for rich people, the EV discount will be gone.
Today you have been filling every newspaper with stories of $150.000 super-car EV's underperforming by 0,2 seconds.
Public opinion (especially the green left) cannot survive to be seen finansing 'toys' for rich people.
Fair or unfair - this is how it is being perceived.
Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
Tesla can't have it both ways.
They can't explain now, almost a year after the P85D was first announced, that they didn't really mean 691 HP in the way everyone else thinks of 691 HP.
Watch the following video, from about 2:04:
That's Elon Musk quite recently answering in the affirmative when asked about the P85D, "691 HP?"
There were no inane qualifiers about motor power, etc., etc. The interviewer restated the commonly known fact, propagated by Tesla, that the P85D makes 691HP, and Musk, on camera, confirmed it.
I'd ask anyone who feels like commenting on how we're whining, and how Tesla didn't mislead to please watch those ten seconds of that video before making your comments, because I think if you watch that video, you'll be hard-pressed to make your comments with a clear conscience.
Edit: It has been pointed out to me via PM that the interview with Musk was clearly edited. I hadn't noticed that, but looking at it again I'd agree. While we don't know what Musk might have said after answering in the affirmative, it may have included disclaimers or qualifiers. I would expect, though, that if they were significant, a reputable organization like "60 Minutes" would not have just edited them out.
They can't explain now, almost a year after the P85D was first announced, that they didn't really mean 691 HP in the way everyone else thinks of 691 HP.
Watch the following video, from about 2:04:
That's Elon Musk quite recently answering in the affirmative when asked about the P85D, "691 HP?"
There were no inane qualifiers about motor power, etc., etc. The interviewer restated the commonly known fact, propagated by Tesla, that the P85D makes 691HP, and Musk, on camera, confirmed it.
I'd ask anyone who feels like commenting on how we're whining, and how Tesla didn't mislead to please watch those ten seconds of that video before making your comments, because I think if you watch that video, you'll be hard-pressed to make your comments with a clear conscience.
Edit: It has been pointed out to me via PM that the interview with Musk was clearly edited. I hadn't noticed that, but looking at it again I'd agree. While we don't know what Musk might have said after answering in the affirmative, it may have included disclaimers or qualifiers. I would expect, though, that if they were significant, a reputable organization like "60 Minutes" would not have just edited them out.
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Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
I believe they just acknowledged that they published numbers that they knew the car was not capable of making with the battery in place the way they were selling the car. It's analogous to the example of a manufacturer publishing a horsepower number for a car based on an engine output that the car can't actually produce because of a fuel line limitation. The specifications need to be for what the car being sold can can actually do, not for what the components, outside of the car could theoretically be capable of.
Don't disagree but they've provided an answer even if it's one people didn't want to hear. Now I guess it's up to the people who want this resolved what would make them happy. Have a feeling Tesla is done with this issue. Hopefully they make the website more clear but the info is public now on how they came up with this.
stopcrazypp
Well-Known Member
Automakers did exactly that (it was called gross power) until the late 1970s when they voluntarily switched to SAE Net power. And they only did the switch because at the time everyone was trying to have lower power numbers because of the fuel crisis.
http://ateupwithmotor.com/terms-technology-definitions/gross-versus-net-horsepower/
There is no law in America nor in Europe that requires you to advertise the net power of a vehicle (or even use SAE standards). I have seen many here say that Tesla MUST advertise using a number that takes into battery limitations or it is false advertising, but that does not appear to be the case. There is a law in Europe that requires Tesla to specify the power of the motors and they did do that, but we now know that number does not take into account of battery limitations. Tesla at the very least tried to add the "motor power" terminology to distinguish what they were doing (Fisker didn't).
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Yes but that does not relieve them of addressing the customers that ordered and bought their vehicles in the 6+ months window when 691hp (700hp Europe) was a major sales promotion given by every TM sales person World wide.
BoerumHill
not great not terrible
Hypothetically, let's say Tesla is done. They've provided a response. That's it, nothing more is coming from TM. There will be no resolution.
Now what?
In their mind it likely does. They showed that they weren't making the numbers up completely. Either way outside taking the cars back for a refund of some kind, they can't fix the physics behind the numbers the cars actually get.
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Andyw2100
Well-Known Member
They could offer the Ludicrous upgrade at no charge, which would get the cars a lot closer to the HP numbers they were supposed to make in the first place. While I don't know how many people would be satisfied with that, it would be a gesture that shows they are at least willing to work with their customers in good faith.
Sorry I'm a little slow, but can you guys check my summary of the blog post - just want to make sure I get it?:
In real life situations the P85D, more than the other D cars, the full motor power cannot be achieved because one or the other sets of wheels cannot get that power down to the ground due to the dynamics of an acceleration. Furthermore, there are real life limitations in the flow of power from the battery to the rest of the system in a rapid acceleration situation (or other system parameters eg SOC, temp).
Can someone also point out what Tesla actually printed on their website initially about hp? I could have sworn it was just 691hp, but can't be sure it wasn't "motor hp". I know this is taking it full circle again, but maybe this will help me accept this whole thing and "fall in line."
Having said that, there is no way that anyone can convince me that Tesla did not mislead by talking about "theoretical power" as opposed to actual hp in almost every situation: on the intro of the D, via its salespeople, and Elon himself. That's business, I guess, and it's something I am working towards accepting.
In real life situations the P85D, more than the other D cars, the full motor power cannot be achieved because one or the other sets of wheels cannot get that power down to the ground due to the dynamics of an acceleration. Furthermore, there are real life limitations in the flow of power from the battery to the rest of the system in a rapid acceleration situation (or other system parameters eg SOC, temp).
Can someone also point out what Tesla actually printed on their website initially about hp? I could have sworn it was just 691hp, but can't be sure it wasn't "motor hp". I know this is taking it full circle again, but maybe this will help me accept this whole thing and "fall in line."
Having said that, there is no way that anyone can convince me that Tesla did not mislead by talking about "theoretical power" as opposed to actual hp in almost every situation: on the intro of the D, via its salespeople, and Elon himself. That's business, I guess, and it's something I am working towards accepting.
JohnSnowNW
Active Member
IMHO, offering a discount to upgrade to Ludicrous is more than enough, it's a shame people aren't in agreement.
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jpet
Jan P.
Simple, we as P85D owners will make sure prospective buyers that seek our advice are made very aware that the numbers published by Tesla are not to be trusted. At the end of the day it boils down to ethics. Up to Tesla to choose where they stand in that respect.
I am a very big Tesla fan but that does not keep me from being disappointed in the way they advertised the P85D. We compared the numbers that were provided to us via the website (and via our Sales Advisors) and opted to order a P85D in stead of e.g. a P85 or 85D. The difference in quoted power was so overwhelming / convincing that we made the tradeoff to pay a significant premium. At the time, we simply trusted the numbers to be comparable with the numbers given for the P85 or 85D. After the car was delivered, we quickly found out Tesla had been quite "creative" with those numbers, i.e. they proved not to be comparable at all.
Now it's up to Tesla to choose to do something about that or not. If they don't, in my mind they are no longer the same company I unconditionally loved and admired. Maybe the most relevant question is if Tesla really cares how I and a number of other P85D owners feel about this. Is it important to Tesla how their customers feel?
