Calling P85D owners world-wide for survey and complaint letter

[stopcrazypp]

The first part of your post disagrees with the second. Somehow my car with Ludicrous mode is getting upgrade to 760 hp, but my motors are staying the same.

I don't think we know that yet. The new rating only applies to new cars out of the factory. Tesla has not said if older P85D upgraded will get their motors re-rated.

However, even if they decide to re-rate higher (which is possible given the new fuse does not heat up nearly as much as the old, so the thermal limits may have changed), I think the "motor power" thing had already been discussed to death in the other thread.

My 2 cents, is that motor power as Tesla references, refers to motor/inverter capability regardless of battery limitations. This was a metric they introduced on all models during the time they launched the P85D. Don't want to rehash too much, so I'll leave a link here:
http://www.teslamotorsclub.com/show...eement/page4?p=1076026&viewfull=1#post1076026

It's even more clear now given that Tesla's site nowadays lists both numbers.

 

[rns-e]

Again you are mixing up distance and speed. A P85D when it reaches 60mph is at a different position on the track than the 85D. On the flip side, as both crosses the 1/4 mile line, the speed they are going is different (the 85D is going ~107mph, the P85D ~115mph). The two are not interchangeable.

So the since the P85D reaches 60 mph earlier than the 85D it has more ground to cover before reaching the 1/4 mile mark, and then doing higher speed.

So the correct way to say would be: the 85D uses 12.5s to reach 107 mph and the P85D 11.9s to reach 115 mph. So checking the difference after 60 mph we need to do it another way

Sorry, it was late when posting the first one - just looked at the $50,500

 

[jcaspar]

This letter sounds silly to me. Sell the car if you don't like it.

 

[Hybris]

Well, thats more or less it from you isnt it. So advertising 0-100kph times in europe with rollout is not misleading eventhough no other companies does it? If you find no fault in that there is no reason to continue discussions here for me at least. And if you dont think correcting false advertising would help I am astonished...

Ref hp-numbers I really dont care, but Tesla's own software reports around 550hp out of the battery at max. The car isnt magically going to produce extra power after that. Ludicrous-mode info confirms this as well with the limit on amperage possible by current fuses. There is no debate about this anymore. The P85D puts out around 550hp at best. And yes it still beats a ICE-based 1/4-mile calculator which most likely is basing its calculations on a number of hp peaks, 1:1 with number of gears, and valleys where as the P85D has a completely different powerband(hope thats the correct english term) characteristics due to its electric motor and one gear..

I have owned numerous of performance cars. They never do the 0-100 kph times they state. Very rare indeed. Many supercars state their 0-60 as the 0-100 kph in Europe. Sure some do perform better than stated bit not common. I think the discussion is getting silly. Go out and enjoy the car! No not defending Tesla. Sure I would like the L mode for free. But I have never gong back to the car vendor and complained I cannot do the 0-100 kph times they stated as I know they are under optimal conditions. Not sure where all this BS about 0-100 in Europe come from? Its as flawed for most ICE cars as anything. "We dont measure with one foot rollout..." Yeah right... All car vendors do really scientific masurements for the European market... Ha ha ha! ;-)

Pretty sure the P85Ds with 245 in the rear and Continentals will be slower than the early ones with 265 and PS2. April and later cars dont have the sport suspension. Would be interesting to see some runs with the different setup. Continentals are way more quiet so if the performance is the same I will consider that for my next tire refresh.

 

[darthy001]

I have owned numerous of performance cars. They never do the 0-100 kph times they state. Very rare indeed. Many supercars state their 0-60 as the 0-100 kph in Europe. Sure some do perform better than stated bit not common. I think the discussion is getting silly. Go out and enjoy the car! No not defending Tesla. Sure I would like the L mode for free. But I have never gong back to the car vendor and complained I cannot do the 0-100 kph times they stated as I know they are under optimal conditions. Not sure where all this BS about 0-100 in Europe come from? Its as flawed for most ICE cars as anything. "We dont measure with one foot rollout..." Yeah right... All car vendors do really scientific masurements for the European market... Ha ha ha! ;-)

Pretty sure the P85Ds with 245 in the rear and Continentals will be slower than the early ones with 265 and PS2. April and later cars dont have the sport suspension. Would be interesting to see some runs with the different setup. Continentals are way more quiet so if the performance is the same I will consider that for my next tire refresh.

With perfect conditions and a pro driver most of the european cars you are reffering to _can_ achieve the advertised numbers yes. The P85D cannot. Actually quite far from it.

All i read from your post is blablabla without any backup for you claims. The owners in Denmark have done thourough testing with 15cars(all early models I believe) in similar conditions, fully charged etc etc and are constantly getting around 3,8seconds instead of 3,3seconds. More than 100recorded runs with proper vbox or similar equipment. They back their statements up with facts at least.

Do the same with a Panamera Turbo for example and see if the numbers are of by as much. Also do the same with the 85D which get much closer if not on the dot of the claims from Tesla.

 

[Hybris]

No they cannot! That is so FUD saying that European 0-100 kph stated by car vendors can always be achived. A few understate their performance but most overstate a lot. No matter the driver. Tuning or adding slicks etc dont count.

Did read the Danish website and they state that Tesla did downgrade our cars in April and by that we did loose 0.4-0.5 s to 100? That would be a serious offense and excellent news for many newspapers if true! I have not noticed a big performance drop on my car but dont run vbox to check... can we confirm changes in performance or is this total FUD?

 

[dsm363]

The 3.3 seconds is with a 1 foot rollout. Something they were unaware of so part of the issue.

 

[Hybris]

And sorry I dont take comments from Norweigans and performance cars very serious as Tesla is the first car most of you can afford due to the strange regulations/taxes...

I dont think I need to prove that many performance cars cannot do their stated 0-100 figures. Its common knowledge and you can find info on that all over the internet. I did not say all as some are understated but its much more common they cannot.

As stated if you are not happy sell your car and buy on of the ICE performance cars you think states their figures right. Audi RS7 is understated so go for that! Nice price over there also!

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The 3.3 seconds is with a 1 foot rollout. Something they were unaware of so part of the issue.

Not strange as car vendors measure the performance in different ways. Not seen any standard or link to regulations regarding this in Europe. Dont think there are any... Have a little hard to understand how 1 foot rollout would mean 3.8s vs 3.3s to 100 kph though... Sure 0.1 or 0.2 but 0.5!

 

[Matias]

Not strange as car vendors measure the performance in different ways. Not seen any standard or link to regulations regarding this in Europe. Dont think there are any...

Yes there is. Kilometer, second and hour are SI-units and they have been standardised very precisely.

 

[darthy001]

As stated if you are not happy sell your car and buy on of the ICE performance cars you think states their figures right. Audi RS7 is understated so go for that! Nice price over there also!

If you are not willing to understand that someone actually wants to own a Tesla that performs as advertised then you are welcome to ignore all of the people here.

You even actually give examples that other manufacturer do provide realistic claims with your RS7-example. Several other Audis are also realistic 0-100kph and at least not a 15% difference like the P85D-numbers here. I believe Porsche is best in class and always deliver on these numbers. We have also seen examples of AMG-models from Mercedes being tested to 1:1-numbers in some of these TMC-threads as well. So Audi, Mercedes and Porsche is at least much better at this then Tesla. But you are welcome to not care and continue the "the other kids did it so Tesla can also do it"-argument for all I care.

That someone else has done something wrong in the past does not excuse current wrongdoings that continue even after several civil comments to the company!! Especially for a company that has a stated goal of not being a classic automaker and revolutionize the way cars are sold.

 

[dsm363]

As stated if you are not happy sell your car and buy on of the ICE performance cars you think states their figures right. Audi RS7 is understated so go for that! Nice price over there also!

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Not strange as car vendors measure the performance in different ways. Not seen any standard or link to regulations regarding this in Europe. Dont think there are any... Have a little hard to understand how 1 foot rollout would mean 3.8s vs 3.3s to 100 kph though... Sure 0.1 or 0.2 but 0.5!

Agree. That's why I said part of the difference. I'm not sure why they are getting such a large difference when multiple magazines and owners have confirmed Tesla's times.

 

[darthy001]

Not strange as car vendors measure the performance in different ways. Not seen any standard or link to regulations regarding this in Europe. Dont think there are any... Have a little hard to understand how 1 foot rollout would mean 3.8s vs 3.3s to 100 kph though... Sure 0.1 or 0.2 but 0.5!

Why don't you actually review the real-world technical test-data from both US and Danish owners before commenting? Dragtimes' and sorka's US-based vbox-testing confirms the same as the owners in Denmark are seeing.

they arent testing this with stopwatches or youtube-videos....

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Agree. That's why I said part of the difference. I'm not sure why they are getting such a large difference when multiple magazines and owners have confirmed Tesla's times.

Dragtimes and sorkas times actually do confirm "both". They confirm the Tesla times with roll-out and confirm the danish results without rollout. Look the graphs from dragtimes:

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-model-s-p85d-insane-vs-sport

Dragtimes there claim 3.17seconds with roll-out. But the real graphs actually shows a ~3.45seconds 0-60mph time without the roll-out. So almost 0.3seconds there alone. Add the ~2mph needed for 0-100kph and you are in 3.7-3.8territory all of a sudden.

 

[MuppetOwl]

Agree. That's why I said part of the difference. I'm not sure why they are getting such a large difference when multiple magazines and owners have confirmed Tesla's times.

Any link to magazines and owners that have confirmed Teslas time? I cant find any that have confirmed the Tesla times without rollout

All of the dragtimes videos are with rollout, so the 3.17 time to 60 mph was closer to 3.5 sec if you look at the graph that show time without rollout

Tesla Model S P85D Insane vs Sport Mode 0-60 MPH Testing | DragTimes.com Drag Racing, Fast Cars, Muscle Cars Blog

Edmunds test without rollout and did 3.5 sec
Edmunds.com

But insane? Hardly. Flip the switch and the P85D's 0-60 falls from 4.3 seconds to 3.5 (3.2 with 1 second of rollout as on a drag strip) and the quarter-mile time drops from 12.4 seconds at 113.5 mph to 11.8 seconds at 113.3 mph.

Where are all the 3.1 sec times to 60 mph not using rollout?

 

[dsm363]

We know now that Tesla must use a 1 foot rollout because it gives them a big advantage.
Tesla P85D Insane Mode vs McLaren 650S Spider | DragTimes.com Drag Racing, Fast Cars, Muscle Cars Blog

This shows about a 3.4 second 0-60 time.

 

[dsm363]

Why don't you actually review the real-world technical test-data from both US and Danish owners before commenting? Dragtimes' and sorka's US-based vbox-testing confirms the same as the owners in Denmark are seeing.

they arent testing this with stopwatches or youtube-videos....

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Dragtimes and sorkas times actually do confirm "both". They confirm the Tesla times with roll-out and confirm the danish results without rollout. Look the graphs from dragtimes:

http://www.dragtimes.com/blog/tesla-model-s-p85d-insane-vs-sport

Dragtimes there claim 3.17seconds with roll-out. But the real graphs actually shows a ~3.45seconds 0-60mph time without the roll-out. So almost 0.3seconds there alone. Add the ~2mph needed for 0-100kph and you are in 3.7-3.8territory all of a sudden.

So we are in agreement then. What's the issue? Tesla didn't advertise using a 1 foot rollout which they should have but did you ask?

 

[MuppetOwl]

It looks like P85D/P90D/Ludicrous is the only models Tesla use rollout on, example the 85D after many test using gtech can do the 0-60mph times from Teslas specs without rollout.

If we just forget all other cars in the world, it is still not good advertisement from Tesla because buyers must be able to compare performance/hp numbers between Teslas own models before paying much more money for the top of the line model. 3.1 sec to 60 mph is a much better upgrade from 85D time of 4.2 sec than 3.5 sec.

Also Tesla did as we know remove the performance suspension from P85D build after april 30. So the only thing P85D buyers get now is a larger rear engine and 0.7 sec faster 60 time.

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So we are in agreement then. What's the issue? Tesla didn't advertise using a 1 foot rollout which they should have but did you ask?

No other car manufacture that sell car where i live use 1 foot rollout times. So why should i ask? its cleary that 0-100kph is zero-100 and not example 5-100kph.

Also some US magazines agree that using rollout is cheating.

Example edmunds:

On the other hand, the use of rollout with 0-60 times is inappropriate in our view. For one, 0-60-mph acceleration is not a drag-racing convention. More important, it's called ZERO to 60 mph, not 3 or 4 mph to 60 mph, which is what you get when you apply rollout. While it is tempting to use rollout in order to make 0-60 acceleration look more impressive by 0.3 second, thereby hyping both the car's performance and the apparent skill of the test driver, we think it's cheating.

How We Test Cars and Trucks

 

[Niclas]

I think that the silent removal of sport suspension on PD is a bigger problem that the 1-foot rollout issue! Is nobody complaining about that??!!

 

[dsm363]

I agree 1 foot rollout is cheating. Tesla shouldn't do it but many in the U.S. do. If it was mandated that any advertising listed that the problem would go away but someone at Tesla likely felt that wanted to be on a level playing field with other manufacturers.

 

[Hookmaker]

I think that the silent removal of sport suspension on PD is a bigger problem that the 1-foot rollout issue! Is nobody complaining about that??!!

Niclas, not me - because I've got it....;-) (irony/sarcasm may be included for free)

 

[darthy001]

So we are in agreement then. What's the issue? Tesla didn't advertise using a 1 foot rollout which they should have but did you ask?

oh, I must have misread your post in a way that you supported Hybris-claim that the numbers quoted here couldnt be correct.

As mentioned many times here I didnt and still dont really care about this metric myself as the car is a hoot to drive. I did not ask either as I had no clue about roll-out as a concept before I bought the car. But I did know about it when I took delivery. All "thanks" to TMC So not speaking for myself here. I just want Tesla to fix their advertising as I feel there is no need to be intentionally dishonest like this. AND at this point in time there is no doubt that Tesla is aware of this, but they are still showing no disclaimers on the 0-100kph times here in Norway or Denmark. That makes it deliberate in my book and not an honest mistake. They do not change false advertising even when they are caught with their pants down. That worries me.

Reason I keep coming back to these threads is to support those that might not have been fortunate enough to frequent this forum before they accepted their cars for delivery. Seems like most of the Danish owners are in that category, and I feel it is really unfair to them the treatment they are getting from many users here when they have indeed gone forward with this complaint in a very civilized manner. They have given Tesla months to respond to both verbal comms and written letters.

edit: oh, personally I really want the software-update that disappeared..... That is something that I do care about as the performance at highwayspeeds is far from insane... 0-100kph is more than fast enough as-is for me.

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I agree 1 foot rollout is cheating. Tesla shouldn't do it but many in the U.S. do. If it was mandated that any advertising listed that the problem would go away but someone at Tesla likely felt that wanted to be on a level playing field with other manufacturers.

That is perfectly fine in the US. Just add the disclaimer explaining it. Just as they did with top-speed and other aspects. They had asterixs for that in the design-studio... So why not for the 0-60/0-100?

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I think that the silent removal of sport suspension on PD is a bigger problem that the 1-foot rollout issue! Is nobody complaining about that??!!

There are people complaining about that as well, but that isn't the same set of owners as the group of buyers who ordered in October 2014. And only a very small portion of buyers got the regular suspenson after ordering when the design studio had the performance suspension-info listed. Tesla did remove the wording in the design studio on this.. Showing that they can change it when they want to