Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Can the Electric grid handle EV adoption

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
Ice storage is mostly a commercial thing and has been around for quite a while. I don’t think I’ve come across any residential installations. They’re more complicated and overall less efficient, as they require additional equipment, pumps and water treatment. That said, they might have a place in homes in the future.
Actually, it can actually be more efficient depending on your climate. If you have cool nights and hot days, you make the ice at night and take advantage of it already being cool, and that makes up for the larger temperature drop to below freezing. This is harder if you want to be solar powered, as you must make your ice in the morning when it is warmer. Some Ice Bear solutions get a bit over 100% efficiency.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Earl

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
8,757
11,429
Boise, ID
Perhaps some drivers will feel disgruntled about being forced into an EV, at least at first, but once they drive one they'll change their minds real quick.
No, definitely not. You seem firmly stuck in the "car only" paradigm and are not even considering the truck situation I mentioned earlier. Test driving and getting a "Wheeee!!" feeling is not the only thing people need to consider when choosing a vehicle. 80 miles of towing range is not an exaggeration and is absolutely pathetic and unacceptable. Vehicles need to meet needs and accomplish required tasks. Towing is a real thing that happens and people need vehicles that can do that. If those vehicles are banned, that is not OK.

And yes, I am well aware that gas and diesel vehicles have their EFFICIENCY destroyed while towing also. But the fact is that they still have that advantage that liquid fuel is so energy dense that you can put a ridiculous amount of fuel onboard and get decent long total range even while having terrible efficiency.
 
Towing is a real thing that happens and people need vehicles that can do that.

Agreed. However, people who tow are in the vast minority... and legislation is not taking away their current towing-capable vehicles.

That leaves a decade of advancements between now and then. In a decade, it may be that towers need to stop for 5 minutes of charging every hour. So be it.

But forcing the transition will create opportunity to solve those problems. Without the legislation, people who have any reason to keep burning gasoline will just keep doing it.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Zythryn

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
8,757
11,429
Boise, ID
Agreed. However, people who tow are in the vast minority...
Huh. If only the law applied to some people, but not all, right? *facepalm* You also seem blithely unaware that a lot of small businesses use pickups like this and need to replace vehicles in their fleets. This isn't just Joe Sixpack, as you seem to be thinking.
and legislation is not taking away their current towing-capable vehicles.
Yeah, of course it's not retroactive, but this is still less than 15 years in some cases, where they will not have this choice of what to buy when doing fleet turnover of replacing vehicles. There need to be choices that will work.
That leaves a decade of advancements between now and then. In a decade, it MAY BE that towers need to stop for 5 minutes of charging every hour. So be it.
Wow. That is a mighty big bit of optimistic hoping of something that might happen as a basis for these laws that are already passed to be acceptable. That's ridiculous.

But forcing the transition will create opportunity to solve those problems.
Market demand already is a driving factor. Fuel is a big bottom line cost item for a lot of these businesses that use trucks. If auto makers can build trucks with decent range capability to meet these needs, they will sell for the cost savings. That doesn't need to be done with unrealistic bans that assume capable electric products will be developed in the future.

Without the legislation, people who have any reason to keep burning gasoline will just keep doing it.
That reason could be the very valid one of needing to do their jobs. The operating costs will keep shifting in favor of electric over time, and stubborn people will keep suffering from gas price increases until it gets too intolerable.
 

Ogre

On The Clown Car
Sep 6, 2021
3,859
28,011
Oregon
First you have to figure out what the grid will look like in 10+ years when EVs have scaled out a bit.

Most people think you need to take a snapshot of today's grid versus wholesale replacement of the fleet which will take more than 15 years to complete.

How many terrawatts of solar and home solar in particular are going to be added during that time? If you charge your EV off of home solar most of the time, its impact on the grid is near zero. Home solar trends cheaper every year. Home solar is going to continue rolling out and relieving demand from the grid as it does so.

If things get too bumpy, Tesla can push out patch to all cars where it only pulls power from the grid when there is surplus power. There is already controls to charge only during non-peak times. They can make this even more clever.

It's a problem that will solve itself over time. Something we should think about and plan for, but not worry overmuch about.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Big Earl and cmy4x4

Ogre

On The Clown Car
Sep 6, 2021
3,859
28,011
Oregon
I don't believe the electric mandates apply to trucks, though they will eventually.
The electric mandate won't matter. The cost of operating electric trucks will be a lot lower than the cost of operating and maintaining a gas truck. The more miles you put on your vehicle and the more gas it burns, the more appealing electric vehicles are. Trucks will convert over without any mandates (so will cars).
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Rocky_H

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
Oh really? There have been some in a few states and countries, and I had not heard of any making any distinction. I thought it was simply all roadgoing vehicles.
My error. The original California order had not covered trucks, but the new one does.

However, in agreement with what is said above, I don't think it will be a problem for trucks and towing vehicles in 2035 to be electric. They may need to charge a bit more often but there will be charging quite frequently available, even in the backcountry by then.

And for newer trailers by that point, I expect the trailers to come with their own battery and motor. That has a ton of advantages -- you can tow the trailer with even a small car, it's more stable and easier to back up, and the trailer has power when boondocking to last for a very long time. Better weight distribution too. However, that won't help older trailers who will need a beefy tow vehicle.

Another option I predict for 2035 you split your RV into two halves, both of which can drive themselves. You travel with a basic half that has your gear, a fridge, a sink and a toilet -- enough for a picnic but not overnighting. The other has the rest, like beds, couch, rest of kitchen, shower etc. And you have the option in most places to rent the other half locally and have it take a short trip to dock to your unit wherever you ask for it. You don't tow it across the country, it comes 20 miles to your campsite. However, you could tow it if you wanted, or even use a single unit like people do today, but it would be wasteful and more expensive.
 
  • Funny
Reactions: Rocky_H

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
8,757
11,429
Boise, ID
And for newer trailers by that point, I expect the trailers to come with their own battery and motor. That has a ton of advantages -- you can tow the trailer with even a small car, it's more stable and easier to back up, and the trailer has power when boondocking to last for a very long time. Better weight distribution too. However, that won't help older trailers who will need a beefy tow vehicle.
I see from this that you know electric cars, but seem unfamiliar with the dynamics of trailers. This CANNOT EVER happen. It is suicide. Like this is so dangerous it will kill people. You cannot ever have a trailer push the vehicle from behind, so this will never be done.

Having extra dead weight in the trailer that is just battery for extra energy storage might be a possibility, but you can't have it motorized to push.
 

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
I see from this that you know electric cars, but seem unfamiliar with the dynamics of trailers. This CANNOT EVER happen. It is suicide. Like this is so dangerous it will kill people. You cannot ever have a trailer push the vehicle from behind, so this will never be done.

Having extra dead weight in the trailer that is just battery for extra energy storage might be a possibility, but you can't have it motorized to push.
Good lord. Why would you think one would have the trailer push the vehicle from behind. That's nuts. Why do you imagine I wrote that? Honestly, if you think somebody has written something crazy, check first to see you didn't misunderstand. Now, while I think if both vehicles were self driving and communicating you could possibly pull it off but I wouldn't recommend it.
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
8,757
11,429
Boise, ID
Good lord. Why would you think one would have the trailer push the vehicle from behind. That's nuts. Why do you imagine I wrote that?
Because I see people suggest that exact thing over and over and over and over, and you said:
trailers to come with their own battery and motor.
and
you can tow the trailer with even a small car,
...which is implying that a bigger trailer can be towed by a small car without much power because it will be getting help?
and
However, that won't help older trailers who will need a beefy tow vehicle.
and then giving the counterpoint of if the trailers don't have a motor, then they will need more motor power in the vehicle?

and then you wrap it up with a bow here of still suggesting that you think it's possible:
Now, while I think if both vehicles were self driving and communicating you could possibly pull it off but I wouldn't recommend it.
So...yeah.

I see this suggestion constantly to have the trailer push from behind. That sounded exactly like what you were saying.
Honestly, if you think somebody has written something crazy, check first to see you didn't misunderstand.
I see people make this suggestion that is crazy frequently, and when asked, they always really do mean exactly that, so it wasn't my misunderstanding or jumping to wild conclusions at any time before. You are the first person I have ever encountered who suggested having a motor in the trailer but not expecting it to push the truck from behind.

So I stand by my initial response that it needed a warning.
 
Last edited:

bradtem

Robocar consultant
Dec 18, 2018
932
1,063
Sunnyvale, CA
Because I see people suggest that exact thing over and over and over and over, and you said:

and

...which is implying that a bigger trailer can be towed by a small car without much power because it will be getting help?
and

and then giving the counterpoint of if the trailers don't have a motor, then they will need more motor power in the vehicle?

and then you wrap it up with a bow here of still suggesting that you think it's possible:

So...yeah.

I see this suggestion constantly to have the trailer push from behind. That sounded exactly like what you were saying.

I see people make this suggestion that is crazy frequently, and when asked, they always really do mean exactly that, so it wasn't my misunderstanding or jumping to wild conclusions at any time before. You are the first person I have ever encountered who suggested having a motor in the trailer but not expecting it to push the truck from behind.

So I stand by my initial response that it needed a warning.
And you're the first person I have seen talk about people who think the trailer will push. But then I've been talking about it with people in the trailer industry, who know how trailers work. The motor in the trailer would only ever provide enough power to make the trailer easier to move, and require there be some towing force on the tow bar -- but not as much as if you were pulling a dumb trailer, that's all. Never heard anybody ever suggest otherwise but you must hang out with different folks!
 

Rocky_H

Well-Known Member
Feb 19, 2015
8,757
11,429
Boise, ID
And you're the first person I have seen talk about people who think the trailer will push. But then I've been talking about it with people in the trailer industry, who know how trailers work. [...] Never heard anybody ever suggest otherwise but you must hang out with different folks!
Yeah, every freaking article on the Tesla semi truck or other electric pickups on Facebook has these people who don't know about it suggesting that the trailers need to be built with batteries and motors to push, which will extend range. So that's where I see this all the time. Sorry for my assumptions that this was like that.
 

About Us

Formed in 2006, Tesla Motors Club (TMC) was the first independent online Tesla community. Today it remains the largest and most dynamic community of Tesla enthusiasts. Learn more.

Do you value your experience at TMC? Consider becoming a Supporting Member of Tesla Motors Club. As a thank you for your contribution, you'll get nearly no ads in the Community and Groups sections. Additional perks are available depending on the level of contribution. Please visit the Account Upgrades page for more details.


SUPPORT TMC
Top