Canadian CHAdeMO charging

[rypalmer]

I feel as though if it were site and host-based issues, there would be some good KSI sites.

I generally only use two KSI sites in downtown Toronto.
- MaRS
- Manulife Centre

Both give me the full amperage.

The YMCA on Cherry Street is throttled and it really bugs me because it's the closest. They've got some interesting demand management things going on I suspect, and the tiny solar array on the roof feels like a child's toy considering how much work they went to to give the building its own detachable microgrid.

 

[MarcoRP]

Same operation. Flo is the bilingual branding that came after Circuit Électrique network expanded outside Quebec, AFAIK.

Which means that a FLO card works with a CÉ charger and CÉ card works with a FLO charger and the app works with both.

 

[ChooseGreen]

Both give me the full amperage.

Thanks for that info Ryan. Happy to be proven wrong on that one. Hopefully this becomes the rule rather than the exception.

Looks like it delivers on the order of 40 kW; is that normal for Ontario L3 chargers (non superchargers)? I thought they were capable of 50 kW, but perhaps that is only a super-ideal case.

 

[rypalmer]

Thanks for that info Ryan. Happy to be proven wrong on that one. Hopefully this becomes the rule rather than the exception.

Looks like it delivers on the order of 40 kW; is that normal for Ontario L3 chargers (non superchargers)? I thought they were capable of 50 kW, but perhaps that is only a super-ideal case.

All CHAdeMO stations are amperage limited. On low nominal voltage packs, such as the Tesla 70/75kWh pack size, this translates into real world charging speeds in the low 30s kW at low states of charge. It's brutal. But it's not because the host has throttled the machine.

 

[Paul Carter]

All CHAdeMO stations are amperage limited. On low nominal voltage packs, such as the Tesla 70/75kWh pack size, this translates into real world charging speeds in the low 30s kW at low states of charge. It's brutal. But it's not because the host has throttled the machine.

Yes I've noticed this too. Using CHAdeMO for long distance travel you'll need to ride more towards the top half of the battery instead of the usual ride the bottom half for Tesla Superchargers.

 

[rypalmer]

Yes I've noticed this too. Using CHAdeMO for long distance travel you'll need to ride the top half of the battery instead of the usual ride the bottom half for Tesla Superchargers.

Yes - quite a drag, compared to the convention of starting a big drive going from 100% to 10% and then Supercharging!

 

[RiverBrick]

The voltage the vehicle can accept may be lower than what the station can provide. However, a Tesla with adapter can accept a current of 125A (unless battery too cold, hot or full.)
The problem with many of the KSI units is that they are throttled to 60A-70A.

The voltage limitation in my car varies from about 320V (battery empty) to 400V (battery full). This leads to CHAdeMO power between 40 kW (320V x 125A) and 48 kW at stations offering the full 125A of current. Due to only 60A, you're saddled with half that if you want to use KSI between Ottawa and Sudbury.

The same voltage limitation applies when Supercharging, but a Supercharger more than compensates by offering massive current (up to nearly 400A).

 

[ChooseGreen]

Aha, that makes sense. So heading through NB towards PEI, it may actually be quicker to stop at many of the Trans-Canada CHAdeMO stations installed this past year rather than skipping one or more to keep the pack voltage up high. We'll see what nominal voltage the standard range Model 3 runs at and if that has any material effects on CHAdeMO charging speed.

Yes, those KSI stations along highway 17 between Ottawa and Sudbury sound painfully slow and expensive. I hope some of those 2018-scheduled supercharger installations are able to happen in either 2018 or 2019 to connect Ottawa to the Sudbury supercharger without having to go through Huntsville. I'm really cheering for that Renfrew one to start as that would be a huge gateway and enable KSI-avoidance.

Thanks for your insights!

 

[mknox]

...but many other criticisms should land upon the hosts who haven't allocated enough electrical capacity to allow these stations to operate at full power, are charging too much for what they are offering.

Small nit-pick here. The EVCO rules were supposed to require that the proponent make all the necessary arrangements, studies and so forth to ensure the host site they selected was suitable. It appears that KSI threw darts at a map, and after being awarded the contract, learned that some site were unsuitable and had to quickly relocate. These "second choices" are often not the best from an electrical capacity perspective.

 

[rypalmer]

Why KSI got such a disproportionate share of the funding relative to their experience and readiness remains a mystery.

 

[mrElbe]

2 words - Liberal Trough

 

[rypalmer]

2 words - Liberal Trough

Easy to be cynical but do we have any evidence?

 

[RiverBrick]

My theory is that they simply wanted an Ontario-based outfit over outsiders from the USA or Quebec.
The bid-winners were supposed to install first and be reimbursed later, but KSI was unwilling or unable to front any funds. Thus, Mr. KSI had to go on a fund raising tour. Accounts are he can be a very convincing sweet-talker, so that may also have played a role in pulling the wool over government eyes.

 

[RiverBrick]

The Electric Circuit is raising its CHAdeMO rate to 20 cents per minute in Quebec ($12/hr). I believe their higher rate of $17/hr in Eastern Ontario is staying the same.

 

[mknox]

My theory is that they simply wanted an Ontario-based outfit over outsiders from the USA or Quebec.

I was peripherally involved in the EVCO process (part of a consortium bid that ended up being unsuccessful) and don't believe this was the case... at least not overtly. Who knows what went on behind closed doors, however.

 

[MarcoRP]

The Electric Circuit is raising its CHAdeMO rate to 20 cents per minute in Quebec ($12/hr). I believe their higher rate of $17/hr in Eastern Ontario is staying the same.

Are you mentioning the CCS too or just the CHAdeMO?

 

[Phillip L]

The Electric Circuit is raising its CHAdeMO rate to 20 cents per minute in Quebec ($12/hr). I believe their higher rate of $17/hr in Eastern Ontario is staying the same.

Have power rates increased in Québec recently?

 

[RiverBrick]

Are you mentioning the CCS too or just the CHAdeMO?

Since the thread is titled "Canadian CHAdeMO Charging" and Teslas can't yet use CCS, there's no need to mention CCS for now.

Have power rates increased in Québec recently?

No, but $10/hr was too low to get hosts interested in investing $25,000 - $40,000 to install stations. The government only picks up the purchase price ($28,000) but not installation, network or maintenance fees.

New installations dropped to 26 in Quebec last year (was around 40 in 2016 and 30 in 2015) since they've run out of companies willing to absorb the loss out of their green budgets. In 2015, there was no CHAdeMO between Ottawa and Montreal on the 417 or 50. It took a private citizen paying $15,000 out of his own pocket to cobble together enough funds for the station in Montebello.

Contrast this to hydrogen stations where the province may be paying 100% of the up to $3,000,000 tab for a single pump!

 

[rypalmer]

No, but $10/hr was too low to get hosts interested in investing $25,000 - $40,000 to install stations. The government only picks up the purchase price ($28,000) but not installation, network or maintenance fees.

AddEnergie SmartDC fast chargers, as of a year ago, were $42k to purchase.

 

[RiverBrick]

AddEnergie SmartDC fast chargers, as of a year ago, were $42k to purchase.

Do you know if that includes an extended warranty, networking and service plan? In 2015, it was apparently $35,000 for the unit in Markham, including five-years of service and networking.

http://www2.markham.ca/markham/ccbs.../General/gc150413/Electric Vehicle Report.pdf