Certified installer inflated costs

[Matt-FL]

Not to extend this discussion further, but my comment was in no regards attacking Tesla for leaving my area. I know why they left my area, and I have no hard feelings over it. My utility is a PIA to deal with, it makes total financial sense. Heck, I'd leave my utility if I had a choice (and I mostly have now for at least electric - they also provide water & sewer).

My argument was around the extreme over-inflated prices that third party installers are charging. They all tout how they want everyone green, but I think they just mean green inside their wallets. I completely get that companies are in business to make a profit, but this, imo, is approaching fraudulent. Kind of reminds me of car dealerships in 2021-2022. Now we see all dealerships ailing badly, I think we will see something similar for solar installers, and that will affect all solar installers, not just the ones who are taking advantage of people.

It makes me wonder if the IRS will start wondering why customer A's 30% tax credit was $15k for a system, and customer B's credit was $30k for an identical system. If they did, I think the burden would land on the homeowner instead of the inflated installer. I mean, they hired 80,000 IRS agents in the last few years, I'm sure they are sitting around thinking up things like this. After all, all of our money is their money (in their eyes).

<stepping down from soap box>

<one person clapping awkwardly in the crowd>

 

[Jeremy3292]

Not to extend this discussion further, but my comment was in no regards attacking Tesla for leaving my area. I know why they left my area, and I have no hard feelings over it. My utility is a PIA to deal with, it makes total financial sense. Heck, I'd leave my utility if I had a choice (and I mostly have now for at least electric - they also provide water & sewer).

My argument was around the extreme over-inflated prices that third party installers are charging. They all tout how they want everyone green, but I think they just mean green inside their wallets. I completely get that companies are in business to make a profit, but this, imo, is approaching fraudulent. Kind of reminds me of car dealerships in 2021-2022. Now we see all dealerships ailing badly, I think we will see something similar for solar installers, and that will affect all solar installers, not just the ones who are taking advantage of people.

It makes me wonder if the IRS will start wondering why customer A's 30% tax credit was $15k for a system, and customer B's credit was $30k for an identical system. If they did, I think the burden would land on the homeowner instead of the inflated installer. I mean, they hired 80,000 IRS agents in the last few years, I'm sure they are sitting around thinking up things like this. After all, all of our money is their money (in their eyes).

<stepping down from soap box>

<one person clapping awkwardly in the crowd>

100% agree. I was merely saying that’s why it costs at least somewhat more, not that it should cost 10x more bc there is definitely gouging going on.

 

[sunwarriors]

I sorta disagree with the gouging going on. If OP checked and got 15 quotes (this is about how many I got) for his area and that one he posted is the best, then that's probably what it simply costs in his/her area. You hear people post from Australia that we pay insane amounts for solar at even the $2.25/W levels and OP has his best quote at $3.90/W so that's probably just what it costs. I also see quotes on the solar reddit and in my own case, not going with Tesla didn't cost considerably more (~$0.05/W) so people need to do their research/homework.

Just because Tesla can do it in some other city for cheap doesn't mean it applies to you/everyone around you. In simple terms, companies want to make $$ and if they can charge $3.9 and other people bite, maybe it's your area problem really. Companies can't gouge and stay in business if things are too overpriced for the area.

Assuming you got a ton of quotes, you're stuck. I suggest getting more quotes, try energysage as a starting point and see what else turns up.

 

[GregBallantyne]

I had a lot more typed here, but My feeling on this is that its actually healthy for a company to decline business, if they cant support it properly.

Tesla has had "challenges" (lets call them) with customer service, and in my opinion a lot of those troubles can be traced back to "too much business, not enough support infrastructure for said business".

I am not (repeat, I am NOT) trying to make this a "Tesla customer service" thread as there is enough feedback on that already. What I AM saying, however, is its healthy for a company to only do the business it can support, and Tesla has failed at that seemingly on Purpose. Punting on areas they cant support in a manner that makes sense to them is healthy, and actually shows signs of company maturity.

Or, said another way, as an answer to your question above "Yes, that is the goal, if they cant support it properly or deem its not profitable for them".

There were also reports of customers getting Tesla installs seeing significant price increases and Tesla losing money on other installations due to estimates and contracts being too low. Also reports of plenty of installation issues, along with customer service issues. All these things were part of my own thought process when I was evaluating the 3rd party certified installers quote.
My installer also enveloped the entire project, which included complete house exterior update, with in house business lines. Seamless project installation, management, customer service, and trouble free operation. I paid more than the Tesla quote would have been, but I am a satisfied and happy person today.
Everyone has to make their own choices, and live with the result. Tesla Solar Roof and Powerwalls are simply the best residential solar solution available for many. There are less expensive choices however. That's the current market.

 

[walla2]

I suggest getting more quotes, try energysage as a starting point and see what else turns up.

This plan exactly. I plan to get more quotes because this first offer is at look, laugh, and leave pricing similar to what you might find in an upscale boutique and these are Wal-Mart grade Korean or similar panels, not Versace.

To the others, I agree as well and liked many of the comments about Tesla Energy exiting some markets. Makes sense even if it runs off some customers to other companies. Having had a PW2 and Tesla solar system in California, I did really like that system and would have liked to be a repeat customer, but that's not in the cards. Many others I suspect will have the same experience as they migrate to certified installers over direct installs. Maybe the best of both worlds would have been to make a slightly bigger margin in their direct service line, make it more / always profitable, avoiding massive hikes via certified routes, and keep growing market share, but we won't know until the next adjustment in strategy.

 

[dev_lvl80]

As an update for me, I can't see myself going this road. Best offer:

26 405 W panels for $41,067. That's $1579.50 each for a $278 panel at retail, not wholesale. That's a 568% markup over direct panel costs but includes install.

Two power walls $33,000. Thats $16500 each for $8,950 installed powerwalls. That's a 184% markup for certified over direct both installed.

No one should do this. This is not competitive. Yeah, I get 30% back but that barely puts a dent in 568% and 184% markups.

Just paid invoice to Tesla:
- 22 * T400H (8.8kw)
- 2 PWs
37.5k

^^ estimates seems through the roof

 

[anoopster]

Ask all the other solar installers to get "Certified" by Tesla. It's not all that difficult. Once they know there's only one in your area and demand for Tesla's product, it won't take long for competition to enter your market. Wait until then.

 

[kpanda17]

Guys I’m learning from you while running my own solar journey. So far (NY Metro Experience):

Via the app selected Tesla solar roof, Tesla text me and said for my area it’s moved to 3rd party/installer presenter, sold and installed
Met via phone and email that 3rd party, we will call company Y. First off company Y says Tesla Solar Roof needs a perfect roof pitch and his opinion too expensive and quickly moved to selling me non Tesla everything and panels. Remember, Tesla referred me company Y whom is steering me away from everything Tesla; no Tesla panels, no Tesla inverter and not even Tesla power walls, quoted a different brand. Y was used car salesman like, little education, no real presentation, just like the historic days of selling solar, horrible.

Next via the app I selected Tesla Solar Panels
Tesla immediately setup a presentation meeting for me. The customer experience and focus was perfect and typical Tesla. All Tesla products, financed, installed and warranted Tesla. I was very happy.

 

[kpanda17]

I just had company Y revise with all Tesla products and asked for an itemized quote as to be able to compare to Teslas quote.

Lesson I learned and will cause me to buy a different house in the future. My home, not very small but not 2000 square feet or larger, has a roof that can only support about 8340 kWh of energy. This is only 67% of my current without converting my gas heat, gas dryer and gas hot water to electric heat pumps. My current need is 12.5kwh and these conversion items could add 3-5K kWh of additional load. For sustainability and a net zero home, buy a large one story home. A larger home with a larger roof can produce the necessary solar.

 

[h2ofun]

I just had company Y revise with all Tesla products and asked for an itemized quote as to be able to compare to Teslas quote.

Lesson I learned and will cause me to buy a different house in the future. My home, not very small but not 2000 square feet or larger, has a roof that can only support about 8340 kWh of energy. This is only 67% of my current without converting my gas heat, gas dryer and gas hot water to electric heat pumps. My current need is 12.5kwh and these conversion items could add 3-5K kWh of additional load. For sustainability and a net zero home, buy a large one story home. A larger home with a larger roof can produce the necessary solar.

This is why I have 90 panels on my roofs And I could add more but no need

 

[sunwarriors]

Guys I’m learning from you while running my own solar journey. So far (NY Metro Experience):

Via the app selected Tesla solar roof, Tesla text me and said for my area it’s moved to 3rd party/installer presenter, sold and installed
Met via phone and email that 3rd party, we will call company Y. First off company Y says Tesla Solar Roof needs a perfect roof pitch and his opinion too expensive and quickly moved to selling me non Tesla everything and panels. Remember, Tesla referred me company Y whom is steering me away from everything Tesla; no Tesla panels, no Tesla inverter and not even Tesla power walls, quoted a different brand. Y was used car salesman like, little education, no real presentation, just like the historic days of selling solar, horrible.

Next via the app I selected Tesla Solar Panels
Tesla immediately setup a presentation meeting for me. The customer experience and focus was perfect and typical Tesla. All Tesla products, financed, installed and warranted Tesla. I was very happy.

Just me, but I would be happy to not get Tesla solar roof due to low install base so if issues pop up, only really Tesla can service it so you're on the hook with 1 installer/company with no one else to help and no one wanting to touch it.

I personally think a lot of the other manufacturers are actually better than Tesla, but that's me again. Micro-inverters are superior IMO, LFP is preferred by me, being able to choose any components/panels/etc is nice too.

 

[kpanda17]

Please give me the non Tesla leaders in solar

 

[sunwarriors]

Please give me the non Tesla leaders in solar

I'm a biased Enphase fan. They have V2H/V2G planned for release in 2024 and they already have a working, supported, deployed w/ customers integrated generator/solar solution already. Their batteries are LFP already if one were to care about that aspect (which can't happen with PW v3 + microinverters). People complain microinverters cost more, but if one were to spend $50k already, that $1k isn't going to matter much (not even adding the tax credit) and you can read the numerous stories of folks here losing their main inverter or maybe their 3rd central inverter (which is also another ugly box in your garage....where most folks don't have enough wall space already).

I read/hear about Franklin batteries as well, but they are a a newer company.

You can google and look at youtube videos as well from other installs/customers. I tend to find Matt Farrell pretty honest with his reviews.

 

[kpanda17]

I'm a biased Enphase fan. They have V2H/V2G planned for release in 2024 and they already have a working, supported, deployed w/ customers integrated generator/solar solution already. Their batteries are LFP already if one were to care about that aspect (which can't happen with PW v3 + microinverters). People complain microinverters cost more, but if one were to spend $50k already, that $1k isn't going to matter much (not even adding the tax credit) and you can read the numerous stories of folks here losing their main inverter or maybe their 3rd central inverter (which is also another ugly box in your garage....where most folks don't have enough wall space already).

I read/hear about Franklin batteries as well, but they are a a newer company.

You can google and look at youtube videos as well from other installs/customers. I tend to find Matt Farrell pretty honest with his reviews.

Thanks
I’ll check these out

 

[wwu123]

I just had company Y revise with all Tesla products and asked for an itemized quote as to be able to compare to Teslas quote.

Lesson I learned and will cause me to buy a different house in the future. My home, not very small but not 2000 square feet or larger, has a roof that can only support about 8340 kWh of energy. This is only 67% of my current without converting my gas heat, gas dryer and gas hot water to electric heat pumps. My current need is 12.5kwh and these conversion items could add 3-5K kWh of additional load. For sustainability and a net zero home, buy a large one story home. A larger home with a larger roof can produce the necessary solar.

Our friend nearby got solar last summer on a one-story home. Even with nearby tree shading and two chimneys, and a particularly complex roof design, they were mostly able to find plenty of south-facing roof area on their 3000+ sq foot one-story home. They shopped around and got a pretty similar price to Tesla's quote, much better than what I paid $/kw for my 4kw of solar a decade ago.

Meanwhile, I wanted to add a Powerwall last year, but just had no more good sunny space on my small two-story roof (also partly tree-shaded) for the additional 5kw of panels Tesla required as a bundle. So far your maxim rings true...

BUT... their roof is 25 years old, will need a new roof sooner rather than later, certainly before their panels age out. Of course they shopped for roof replacement quotes before getting the solar .... I believe it was around $80K (here in Silicon Valley). My home is a bit smaller, but since it's two-story, I've got well less than half their roof area (and only 5 roof planes vs 20+) - so maybe $25-30K for mine? (Since our friend's roof is still in decent shape being partially shaded, they didn't replace but did choose the installer who offered a modest $1K option, to later pull up and reinstall their solar panels when they eventually re-do the roof)

So a one-story roof can get you more solar electricity savings over 20-25 years, but you pay a ton more when re-do the roof vs two-story. So you gain some, you lose some - it's all tradeoffs.... Kinda like how in one of the vehicle sub-forums here, a one-year Tesla owner just realized that they're saving some using electric vs gasoline, but they're shelling out $1500 for new tires every 18 months, totally negating the TCO benefits.

 

[BGbreeder]

Our friend nearby got solar last summer on a one-story home. Even with nearby tree shading and two chimneys, and a particularly complex roof design, they were mostly able to find plenty of south-facing roof area on their 3000+ sq foot one-story home. They shopped around and got a pretty similar price to Tesla's quote, much better than what I paid $/kw for my 4kw of solar a decade ago.

Meanwhile, I wanted to add a Powerwall last year, but just had no more good sunny space on my small two-story roof (also partly tree-shaded) for the additional 5kw of panels Tesla required as a bundle. So far your maxim rings true...

BUT... their roof is 25 years old, will need a new roof sooner rather than later, certainly before their panels age out. Of course they shopped for roof replacement quotes before getting the solar .... I believe it was around $80K (here in Silicon Valley). My home is a bit smaller, but since it's two-story, I've got well less than half their roof area (and only 5 roof planes vs 20+) - so maybe $25-30K for mine? (Since our friend's roof is still in decent shape being partially shaded, they didn't replace but did choose the installer who offered a modest $1K option, to later pull up and reinstall their solar panels when they eventually re-do the roof)

So a one-story roof can get you more solar electricity savings over 20-25 years, but you pay a ton more when re-do the roof vs two-story. So you gain some, you lose some - it's all tradeoffs.... Kinda like how in one of the vehicle sub-forums here, a one-year Tesla owner just realized that they're saving some using electric vs gasoline, but they're shelling out $1500 for new tires every 18 months, totally negating the TCO benefits.

That is an interesting decision making process on your neighbor's part to put solar on an old roof. Most of the installers that I spoke with around here would not install on an old roof, or only with a waiver of pretty much everything. I hope that they got that $1k remove and reinstall in writing, as that seems way too low, again based on my limited discussions.

It is an interesting world...

All the best,

BG

 

[Jeremy3292]

For reference, here is my current price sheet from Tesla. $2.34 per watt installed

 

[kpanda17]

For reference, here is my current price sheet from Tesla. $2.34 per watt installed

View attachment 984084

would be great to see the incentives and ROI.
Small houses and roof are bad ROI for solar. If a lot of electric use of EVs, AC and many heat pumps, the roof space cannot generate enough power for the install cost. For example my ROI is 12.5 years

 

[Jeremy3292]

would be great to see the incentives and ROI.
Small houses and roof are bad ROI for solar. If a lot of electric use of EVs, AC and many heat pumps, the roof space cannot generate enough power for the install cost. For example my ROI is 12.5 years

I’m getting 9.315 kW after moving some roof vents. South Carolina also has a 25% state tax credit coupled with the 30% federal tax credit so I pay 45 cents on the dollar for my install.

 

[kpanda17]

I’m getting 9.315 kW after moving some roof vents. South Carolina also has a 25% state tax credit coupled with the 30% federal tax credit so I pay 45 cents on the dollar for my install.

I’m a numbers guy, can you show the math and ROI?