Charging with 220V 3 phases in USA Model Y 2023

[Cosmacelf]

I think he's just suggesting something like the mobile connector would have the rectifier on it instead of in the car . You'd still have different options on connecting the AC side

It's maybe not a terrible idea you'd just probably have to carry around a bigger connector/ charger all the time though.. but we do that now anyway

It is a terrible idea. There are more more level 2 chargers than there are EVs (one level 2 charger per home, plus all the work chargers, parking lots, convenience stores, etc). So that argues for making the level 2 charger as cheap as possible.

Sticking a rectifier in there, and why stop there, you‘d also want the voltage converter (have to get the DC voltage to pack voltage somehow) would reduce that cost from each car, but make each level 2 EVSE FAR more expensive. Overall, the EV economy would be more expensive.

Anyways, this is a pointless discussion since nothing like this is going to happen.

 

[cwerdna]

As for CHAdeMO, outside of Japan and maybe China there doesn’t seem like it has a decent adoption rate. Sounds like a harder ask than converting Europe to NACS. Though apparently ChaoJi is in the works.

Why would they use CHAdeMO in China? They use a GB/T DC FC standard (see Tesla Charge Ports & Plugs from China, North America, and Europe Compared (for Models S, X, 3, & Y)). But yes, ChaoJi is supposed to be (IIRC) a unification of CHAdeMO and GB/T standards.

In Australia where I am Gen3 wall chargers support 3phase charging and 16amps per phase giving11kWh charging rate

Charging rating is measured in kW, not kWh.

 

[gt2690b]

It is a terrible idea. There are more more level 2 chargers than there are EVs (one level 2 charger per home, plus all the work chargers, parking lots, convenience stores, etc). So that argues for making the level 2 charger as cheap as possible.

Sticking a rectifier in there, and why stop there, you‘d also want the voltage converter (have to get the DC voltage to pack voltage somehow) would reduce that cost from each car, but make each level 2 EVSE FAR more expensive. Overall, the EV economy would be more expensive.

Anyways, this is a pointless discussion since nothing like this is going to happen.

I don't disagree it's a bad idea but I believe you're overcomplicating it.. you'd still be able to use all the level 2 chargers around it's merely removing the charger from the car and making it external instead of internal

 

[davewill]

Two conductors is technically still a single phase voltage

Yes, but you would use two of the three phases on the three phase outlet to get 208v. If you used only one of the phases (and neutral), you would only have 120v.

 

[Rocky_H]

Yes, but you would use two of the three phases on the three phase outlet to get 208v. If you used only one of the phases (and neutral), you would only have 120v.

I think that depends on what kind of 3 phase configuration and voltage level it is. Some have three power phases plus a center tap neutral, so spanning across from one phase to the neutral still gets you that ~200V.

 

[davewill]

I think that depends on what kind of 3 phase configuration and voltage level it is. Some have three power phases plus a center tap neutral, so spanning across from one phase to the neutral still gets you that ~200V.

True, but since we were talking about an adapter from a three phase outlet to a standard 240v outlet to be used with a Tesla Mobile Connector, you wouldn't actually want to wire it that way.

 

[gt2690b]

I think that depends on what kind of 3 phase configuration and voltage level it is. Some have three power phases plus a center tap neutral, so spanning across from one phase to the neutral still gets you that ~200V.

you can get 277V from a single phase and neutral of a 480 but what we are talking about here is 3 phase 120V phase to neutral that are 120 degrees apart such that you get a single phase 208V when taking two of the hots

residential 120 phase to neutrals are 180 degrees out of phase giving you the full 240V

 

[retbesla]

All of the US. 3 phase power is only available to commercial customers, meaning larger buildings. The Tesla Wall Charger has a maximum charge rate of 48A (on a single phase, of course), giving you 11.5 kW. I looked up the Australian Wall Connector, but couldn't deduce the wattage you'd get there (although it has a 32A maximum, but of course, different number of phases and voltages).

I’m not expert here, but my one family house has 3 phase (wye with 4 wires?) with 200 amp max. And I believe many houses have 3 phase too.

Anyway, I usually got 208V with 40 amp (NEMA 14-50) to my car. If my house devices don’t draw much power, I might get 213V. If HVAC or electric heater are ON and my house is bright like Xmas tree, my EV may only get 204V.

Maybe I should consider installing 60 amps circuit breaker one day, so I can utilize the max of Wall Connector.

 

[Rocky_H]

I’m not expert here, but my one family house has 3 phase (wye with 4 wires?) with 200 amp max.

Really?! I've been on this forum for about 9 years, and I've still NEVER seen anyone in the United States actually have 3 phase supply in their house. Can you post some pictures of what this panel and some of the hookups look like?

And I believe many houses have 3 phase too.

Definitely not.

Anyway, I usually got 208V

This is frequently found in buildings that are supplied FROM a 3 phase system, but they don't get access to the full 3 phase system in the house. It's just the 120V and 208V.

 

[retbesla]

Really?! I've been on this forum for about 9 years, and I've still NEVER seen anyone in the United States actually have 3 phase supply in their house. Can you post some pictures of what this panel and some of the hookups look like?

Definitely not.

This is frequently found in buildings that are supplied FROM a 3 phase system, but they don't get access to the full 3 phase system in the house. It's just the 120V and 208V.

Wow. You got me more confused now. I know my panel has 4 big wires (blue/black/red/white) coming in from the top, 3 (blue/black/red?) in the middle, and 1 (white?) on the side. If I remember those colors correctly. We got either 120V or 208V. My wires go underground, so I won't be able to count them outsides, But, some of my neighbors also have 4-wires, and theirs are going from the street to their house, and some neighbors have 3-wires.

Let me see if I have the old pics in the past. I'm not touching the panel cover for the new pic.

I know 3-phase power is uncommon in a residential setting in USA. But, is it really rare?

 

[Rocky_H]

Wow. You got me more confused now.

Well, I stuck with just asking, because there is a remote possibility that this is, but it would be extremely rare if it exists here. 3 phase power in homes is pretty common in most European countries, and they are frequently shocked to hear we just don't have that here in the U.S.

I know my panel has 4 big wires (blue/black/red/white) coming in from the top, 3 (blue/black/red?) in the middle, and 1 (white?) on the side. If I remember those colors correctly. We got either 120V or 208V.

Huh. Well, blue, black, and red. This is sounding like a possibility. You said you don't want to look into your panel, but I would love to see in there to see what is available. I think a panel would have to be made differently to support three hot phases than what we normally have with just two bus bars.

I know 3-phase power is uncommon in a residential setting in USA. But, is it really rare?

It's basically unheard of. There are two slightly different things in two different scenarios: Regular suburban residential housing areas get simple "split phase". It's simply two 120V sides that run opposite of each other for 240V total. But in some industrial/commercial building areas, they do have 3 phase transformers nearby. So for some apartments and condos, they will take part of that to bring 120V and 208V into each apartment unit, but they don't bring in all three phases, where you could do 5 pin outlets like they have in Europe. If that's what you have, it would be the first case I've heard of here.

 

[Big Earl]

All of the US. 3 phase power is only available to commercial customers, meaning larger buildings. The Tesla Wall Charger has a maximum charge rate of 48A (on a single phase, of course), giving you 11.5 kW. I looked up the Australian Wall Connector, but couldn't deduce the wattage you'd get there (although it has a 32A maximum, but of course, different number of phases and voltages).

3-phase power is available for residential customers in some places. I had a friend in Novi, Michigan who had a mid-century home with 3-phase power. The service is more expensive than standard split-phase power and it would be silly to go this route unless you had large electric motors in a personal machine shop or something like that. In my friend's case, it was a 5,000 square foot mid-century behemoth with two large air conditioning systems.

 

[retbesla]

Well, I stuck with just asking, because there is a remote possibility that this is, but it would be extremely rare if it exists here. 3 phase power in homes is pretty common in most European countries, and they are frequently shocked to hear we just don't have that here in the U.S.


Huh. Well, blue, black, and red. This is sounding like a possibility. You said you don't want to look into your panel, but I would love to see in there to see what is available. I think a panel would have to be made differently to support three hot phases than what we normally have with just two bus bars.


It's basically unheard of. There are two slightly different things in two different scenarios: Regular suburban residential housing areas get simple "split phase". It's simply two 120V sides that run opposite of each other for 240V total. But in some industrial/commercial building areas, they do have 3 phase transformers nearby. So for some apartments and condos, they will take part of that to bring 120V and 208V into each apartment unit, but they don't bring in all three phases, where you could do 5 pin outlets like they have in Europe. If that's what you have, it would be the first case I've heard of here.

Not sure if these pics can help. I’m not electrician and it is why I don’t open the panel cover in this old house for the shots. Here is the list of mixed pics. The new radio meter was installed 2-years ago, so I took pics when the power company guy came to replace the meter. They only opened the box directly connected to the meter. I also have 2” pipe for wires. My panel has 44-space. And the the old sheet attached to the panel.

If this is not the 3 phase power, I’ll have to figure out why I only got 208V.

I’m paying the regular resident rate. In New York City, my rate, including tax and fees, is about $29 cents. No peak/off-peak time. There is another rate plan for residential house here in the city - the residential-time-period rate. (Off-peak - Midnight - 8 AM) June - Sept - 25.50/1.80. Oct - May - 9.44/1.80. These prices are before tax and fees. After tax and fees, they could be around 45 cents and plus, 8 am - midnight, between June and Sept. but other months’ rates are ridiculously low. 4 cents?

 

[Rocky_H]

Here is the list of mixed pics.

Wow, the label of that panel itself is really interesting. That definitely does look like a different kind of panel made specifically for 3 phase systems and shows the arrangement of breaker spaces for the three separate hot phases, labeled as A, B, and C. I haven't seen one of these before.

If this is not the 3 phase power, I’ll have to figure out why I only got 208V.

Well, like I mentioned before, a lot of apartment buildings are supplied FROM 3 phase systems and will have that 208V, but they are only getting part of that into the apartment so they use standard single phase panels and breakers.

 

[Big Earl]

Pretty standard issue 3-phase panel right there, complete with three individual legs entering below the meter.

To answer the original question, based on your pictures above, your car will only be able to charge at 208 volts, which is about 15% off of what you'd get at 240 volts.

 

[Quickst]

Interesting to see the differences in electricity supply between countries.

My place here in Austrslia, I get 3 phase 247V

 

[miimura]

Pretty standard issue 3-phase panel right there, complete with three individual legs entering below the meter.

To answer the original question, based on your pictures above, your car will only be able to charge at 208 volts, which is about 15% off of what you'd get at 240 volts.

This is actually not standard for light duty North American 3-phase. His pictures depict a High Leg Delta arrangement. In his panel you have to be careful not to wire any circuits from a single pole breaker in a C position to neutral for 120V loads because that voltage is 208V. Any double pole breaker will be 240VAC.

A more typical North American 3-phase service would be a 120Y208V Wye arrangement. In that case, any phase to neutral is 120VAC and any phase-to-phase is 208V. In California PG&E territory, I believe if you justifiably size your residential service larger than 400A, they will provision 600A (or higher) 120Y208V.

 

[Big Earl]

This is actually not standard for light duty North American 3-phase. His pictures depict a High Leg Delta arrangement. In his panel you have to be careful not to wire any circuits from a single pole breaker in a C position to neutral for 120V loads because that voltage is 208V. Any double pole breaker will be 240VAC.

A more typical North American 3-phase service would be a 120Y208V Wye arrangement. In that case, any phase to neutral is 120VAC and any phase-to-phase is 208V. In California PG&E territory, I believe if you justifiably size your residential service larger than 400A, they will provision 600A (or higher) 120Y208V.

Having worked in a facility with high leg delta, I'm quite familiar. I initially thought his panel might be high leg delta, but upon inspection of his picture, we see that he has single pole circuits populating all three legs.

 

[retbesla]

This is actually not standard for light duty North American 3-phase. His pictures depict a High Leg Delta arrangement. In his panel you have to be careful not to wire any circuits from a single pole breaker in a C position to neutral for 120V loads because that voltage is 208V. Any double pole breaker will be 240VAC.

A more typical North American 3-phase service would be a 120Y208V Wye arrangement. In that case, any phase to neutral is 120VAC and any phase-to-phase is 208V. In California PG&E territory, I believe if you justifiably size your residential service larger than 400A, they will provision 600A (or higher) 120Y208V.

I thought I had Delta arrangement and I can get 208 or 240. But I actually only get 208 in any of two. This is why I said I have wye earlier even though the pic in my box displays delta. Dunno. Sorry to hijack the thread.

 

[miimura]

I thought I had Delta arrangement and I can get 208 or 240. But I actually only get 208 in any of two. This is why I said I have wye earlier even though the pic in my box displays delta. Dunno. Sorry to hijack the thread.

Certainly, the same panel could be wired to a High Leg Delta or Wye transformer. I have to wonder if there used to be a different label depicting a Wye service usage glued over the original one that you photographed. It certainly looks like a bunch of adhesive was spread over the label.