Chevy Bolt - 200 mile range for $30k base price (after incentive)

[McRat]

It doesn't matter at all that the video was cropped slightly. The comparison video was a marketing video, nothing more. The question is if the comparison is valid, and yes, it is. If the comparison was misleading, that is illegal in some jurisdictions. But that's not the case here.

The worst you can say is that they didn't show the other tests, like frontal overlap. That is almost certainly because the difference is much smaller.

I'm not saying anything was illegal or technically invalid about the video. Just an observation that the images were cropped, and the glass velocity (like when you drop a rock in a pond and the water splashes up) appears to be higher in one image.

Somebody who says "I Know For An Absolute Fact" those video clips are same-same tests really cannot back that up. People who say they are inaccurate cannot either. Mostly because the time was cropped off.

 

[Yggdrasill]

I'm not saying anything was illegal or technically invalid about the video. Just an observation that the images were cropped, and the glass velocity (like when you drop a rock in a pond and the water splashes up) appears to be higher in one image.

It makes perfect sense. The glass in the Volvo shattered while the car was moving faster, thus the shards of glass move faster and fly further. The Model 3 had slowed down more before the glass shattered.

 

[McRat]

It makes perfect sense. The glass in the Volvo shattered while the car was moving faster, thus the shards of glass move faster and fly further. The Model 3 had slowed down more before the glass shattered.

With no clock, you cannot determine speed or acceleration, or even estimate it. Both are time based.

 

[Big Dog]

Bolt/Volt: best car ever built. Come on folks, get on over to GM and leave the Tesla for us lemmings. Do the right thing.

 

[Yggdrasill]

With no clock, you cannot determine speed or acceleration, or even estimate it. Both are time based.

I didn't. I only estimated speed reduction relative to initial speed.

 

[Mr X]

Model 3 took a big sh*t on the Bolt!


GM was all happy and excited proclaiming their Dolt had more range than the Model 3. Elon undermined the car from the beginning and then when it was released it pooped on the Dolt

 

[bro1999]

Model 3 took a big sh*t on the Bolt!


GM was all happy and excited proclaiming their Dolt had more range than the Model 3. Elon undermined the car from the beginning and then when it was released it pooped on the Dolt

News flash: base Bolt dusts the base 3 on range.

 

[Jeff N]

News flash: base Bolt dusts the base 3 on range.

On the EPA city estimate. On the highway estimate the Model 3 matches or exceeds the Bolt.

 

[bro1999]

On the EPA city estimate. On the highway estimate the Model 3 matches or exceeds the Bolt.

I am under the assumption the 220 figure is the overall EPA figure.

 

[Jeff N]

I am under the assumption the 220 figure is the overall EPA figure.

Right. The Bolt does much better in the city (255 miles) than the highway (217 miles) EPA estimate. I'm guessing that the Model 3 has a slightly better highway than city EPA estimate due to its likely friction-only brake pedal and excellent aero drag specs.

This is just a guess since Tesla chose not to release the city and highway breakouts of their overall range estimate. We should find out those details in the next few weeks when EPA publishes updated numbers or perhaps Tesla will agree to provide more details.

On the other hand, the fact that Tesla didn't provide a separate highway estimate could be taken as an indication that it can't beat the Bolt EV's 217 estimate. We don't know yet.

 

[techmaven]

Right. The Bolt does much better in the city (255 miles) than the highway (217 miles) EPA estimate. I'm guessing that the Model 3 has a slightly better highway than city EPA estimate due to its likely friction-only brake pedal and excellent aero drag specs.

This is just a guess since Tesla chose not to release the city and highway breakouts of their overall range estimate. We should find out those details in the next few weeks when EPA publishes updated numbers or perhaps Tesla will agree to provide more details.

Yup... we don't know yet. But since every Model S has higher highway EPA efficiency than city EPA efficiency, it is likely that the 220 figure incorporates a lower city range and a higher highway range. In any case, it is likely that the base Model 3 has at least roughly equal highway EPA range as the Bolt. Therefore the comment by @bro1999 that "base Bolt dusts the base 3 on range" is not the total story. As I've said before, we care about total range mostly on the highway. And for most people, that's driving at 70+mph and often at 80mph. There is a cross over point in speed where the Model 3 will have more range than the Bolt. We don't exactly know what speed that is yet, but hopefully we will find out soon.

For ordinary folks, like the woman that @bro1999 publicly shamed for driving her Bolt as she normally would in any other car, highway range at normal traffic speeds is the most important for a long distance BEV. We'll see how this plays out for the masses.

Note to (a few) electric-car advocates: get off your high horses

Of course, the other side is recharging. The base Model 3's recharging speed is a bit disappointing. It points to roughly 68 kW average for the first 30 minutes. But that's still 44% faster on rated range charged than the Bolt's advertised spec. Right now with the CCS EVSE's deployed, the average for a Bolt is just under 40 kW for the first 30 minutes. Which actually means about 76 rated miles hour in the first 30 minutes, so really, a Model 3 charges about 70% faster on rated range in the first 30 minutes. Maybe it will rise to 48 kW average over the first 30 minutes with 160 amp capable EVSE's to get to that 90 miles in 30 minutes.

 

[Jeff N]

Right now with the CCS EVSE's deployed, the average for a Bolt is just under 40 kW for the first 30 minutes. Maybe it will rise to 48 kW average over the first 30 minutes with 160 amp capable EVSE's.

I think that is slightly pessimistic.

On a 125A CCS charger today, the Bolt typically ranges between 42 kW and 45 kW for the first 30 minutes starting at a typical road trip lower state of charge of ~15%. On a future 160A+ charger it should range between 50 kW and 55 kW for an average of around 52-53 kW during a 30 minute charge. Since there aren't all that many highway corridor CCS chargers nationwide today that means most typical highway chargers will be capable of 160A or better in a couple of years.

Based on what I know today, I would put the standard Model 3 average 30 minute charge at around 65 kW. So, 65 kW vs 52 kW. That's about 25% higher in terms of average charging power during long-range driving. Since the Model 3 is likely more efficient at long-range highway driving speeds it may well work out to be more like 50+% faster charging times in terms of distance. So, 30 minutes Supercharging charging a base Model 3 might be equivalent to a typical 45-50 minute charging session on a Bolt EV within a couple of years.

My claim is that the *perceived* charging time difference between 30 minutes and 45-50 minutes is not substantial most of the time whereas a difference between a theoretical charging time of 5 minutes vs 20 minutes would be huge.

Will the Model 3 be the better road trip car vs a Bolt EV. Almost certainly, especially with the larger battery option. However, the Bolt EV with future highway charging infrastructure via VW's ElectrifyAmerica and other providers should make it a viable and competent car for occasional road trips as well.

 

[techmaven]

I think that is slightly pessimistic.

On a 125A CCS charger today, the Bolt typically ranges between 42 kW and 45 kW for the first 30 minutes starting at a typical road trip lower state of charge of ~15%.

Actually, @bro1999 provided data in this article:

More details on fast-charging rate in 2017 Chevy Bolt EV electric car

There is a lot of time spent at under 40 kW on that chart.

On a future 160A+ charger it should range between 50 kW and 55 kW for an average of around 52-53 kW during a 30 minute charge.

Yeah, you are right, I reran the numbers.

Since the Model 3 is likely more efficient at long-range highway driving speeds it may well work out to be more like 50+% faster charging times in terms of distance. So, 30 minutes Supercharging charging a base Model 3 might be equivalent to a typical 45-50 minute charging session on a Bolt EV within a couple of years.

It looks like the base Model 3 is a 45 minute typical Supercharger stop while the Bolt would be more than an hour because of the taper at 53% SOC. The typical use case of 120-140 mile hops at highway speeds in the real world where one doesn't want to discharge down below 10% and would want to charge to about 170 miles of highway range.

My claim is that the *perceived* charging time difference between 30 minutes and 45-50 minutes is not substantial most of the time whereas a difference between a theoretical charging time of 5 minutes vs 20 minutes would be huge.

I don't find this true at all. 25 minutes versus 35 minutes versus 45 minutes is big. 25 minutes is no big deal, it takes that long to do any number of rest stop things. (Tesla 100 kWh pack) 35 minutes gets to be a bit of a slog. (original 85 kWh pack) 45 minutes is then much, much longer, as humans would then be counting down the time. And that's the base Model 3 and original 60 kWh Model S. At over 60 minutes... that often means not taking that car at all for most people. That's the Bolt.

 

[Jeff N]

New Actually, @bro1999 provided data in this article:

More details on fast-charging rate in 2017 Chevy Bolt EV electric car

There is a lot of time spent at under 40 kW on that chart.

Nothing in that article contradicts what I wrote.

It looks like the base Model 3 is a 45 minute typical Supercharger stop while the Bolt would be more than an hour because of the taper at 53% SOC. The typical use case of 120-140 mile hops at highway speeds in the real world where one doesn't want to discharge down below 10% and would want to charge to about 170 miles of highway range.

....

I don't find this true at all. 25 minutes versus 35 minutes versus 45 minutes is big. 25 minutes is no big deal, it takes that long to do any number of rest stop things. 35 minutes gets to be a bit of a slog. 45 minutes is then much, much longer, as humans would then be counting down the time. And that's the base Model 3. At 60 minutes... that often means not taking that car at all for most people. That's the Bolt.

In my experience, a long-range trip in a Bolt EV typically ping-pongs between 30 minute and 60 minute stops. The 30 minute stops are opportunities to use the bathroom and grab a coffee. The 60 minute stops are an opportunity to get food at a sit-down restaurant during breakfast/lunch/dinner.

On my 3 trips from SF to LA (450 miles each way) I have spent very little time twiddling my thumbs waiting for my Bolt to finish charging. Likewise on my 2,600 mile round trip drive from SF to central Utah. Sure, if driving a Bolt vs a Model 3 base trim I might spend a little more time checking my email or checking my favorite websites but it really isn't a big perceived difference to me. I would rate the Bolt as capable and the Model 3 (based upon known specs) as modestly more capable.

 

[wdolson]

The Bolt has some advantages, but on points I think the Model 3 is better.

If you're looking for a stripped long range pure EV, the Bolt has a bit better range, but the Bolt fast charges more slowly and doesn't have access to the supercharger network. For time spent on the road, it may vary depending on the length of the trip, but I think you'd probably get there faster in a base Model 3 than a Bolt for most trips, even with a little less range.

The Bolt has a couple of small features Tesla didn't do like the video screen rear view mirror option and the paddle shifters to make regen strong or weaker. The quality of the interior of the Model 3 appears to be better than the Bolt. According to some of the people who got rides, it's nicer than the Model S in some ways. The Bolt also has a hatch and the M3 a trunk which is not as flexible for all cargoes.

There will be people who prefer the Bolt over the Model 3, but I think Tesla has a winner with the M3.

 

[bro1999]

The Bolt sets another monthly sales record with 1,971 sales in July: Chevrolet Bolt EV Sales Hit New High In July Ahead Of US-Wide Rollout, Volt New Lows

But the critics say this car is DOA, so we'll just ignore the 5 straight months of increasing sales. And the fact the Bolt STILL hasn't landed in all 50 states yet. August sales will surely put another nail in the Bolt's coffin.

 

[schonelucht]

Don't forget 199 Ampera-e's in Norway last month.

 

[bro1999]

Partial sales report for plug-in sales for July: July 2017 Plug-In Electric Vehicle Sales Report Card

Looks like the Bolt will be the highest selling plug-in vehicle for July, unless Ford reports some ungodly number of Fusion Energis sold tomorrow. Not likely, as overall Fusion sales were down over 40%.

Not bad at all for a dead on arrival car that still hasn't landed on dealer lots in all states.

 

[Jeff N]

Not bad at all for a dead on arrival car that still hasn't landed on dealer lots in all states.

Yep, these numbers make it obvious...
DOA! DOA! DOA!

 

[bro1999]

Yep, these numbers make it obvious...
DOA! DOA! DOA!

View attachment 239147

Maybe DOA actually stands for "Damn Over Achiever" now.