Choose between 2015 Model S 85D Higher mileage vs low mileage 2015 Model S 90D.

[zqmisc]

Hi All,

I am planning to finally bite the bullet and buy a used 2015 (or possibly later, budget constrained) Model S. I really need some expert advice on the dilemma that I end up seeing. For example, I saw a high mileage 2015 Model S 85D (with FSUC) vs a low mileage 2015 Model S 90D (no FSUC) with similar features, albeit a little higher price (may be 6K+). So what is more advisable, get the cheaper higher mileage (100K+) 2015 Model S 85D with FUSC or pay up a little more now and get a low mileage 2015 Model S 90D (maybe 60K lesser miles, no FUSC)?

Also I see some concerns about early build MS 90D batteries degrading quicker. What is defined "early"? Is late 2015 considered early? Any and all advise will be greatly appreciated! Thanks.

 

[zqmisc]

Logically a 3 is a better choice. They learned a lot of lessons with the S that went into their design of the 3/Y. There is actually a used market for the 3 so it's possible to save some money going the used route. Objectively the only major thing the S does better is the suspension but is that really worth nearly doubling the price?

Then again if you're really being logical about this then you should buy a Honda Civic or a Prius Prime.

Personally though I tried to like the 3 and I just can't. I don't know what it is but the S just feels great to drive and whenever I test drove the 3 it just reminded me that I'm not driving the S.

Regarding battery failure rates, as others have stated no one knows except Tesla and perhaps some third party shops that fix these batteries. Unfortunately they're not spilling the beans. All we have are anecdotes which aren't the same thing as data.

True dat. Yeah logically speaking considering an ICE car would be a better choice. But I've test driven a used Model S and I enjoyed it. You also reminded me of driving a new Model Y of a friend on a very short trip. I wasn't test driving it like the S and like you said, if I come to think about it, I still seem to have enjoyed the S in comparison. Given how popular Teslas are and how much the owners seem to enjoy them, I am hoping that battery failures is an anomaly and not the norm.

 

[GammaDelta]

Good luck with the search OP. You are doing the right due diligence and asking the right questions. I picked up my Model S on the cheap as the front end was crunched in, and I fixed it myself - so the price was too good to pass up. That factored into my risk factor vs the 3 (also the 3 was way too small for my 2 dogs and kiddo) but also I am a big DIYer. I really like the smell and feel of the real leather, and after driving a FSD 3 all last week I prefer the AP1 implementation and use it often on my commute.

My battery for the P90D still delivers 240 miles (even with my lead foot) and when I recently checked the rear LDU speed sensor there was ZERO coolant present (an indication of failure in the LDUs) - these are things to look for on these old S's.

Any 8 year old 100K+ mileage vehicle will need maintenance, and if you rely on dealer service out of warranty alone an old Merc/Audi/(insert luxury car here) will make you go broke. So if you cannot at least do some diagnostics and fixes, you should go with the 3. I have been working on Merc/Audis for years and the S is intimidating, but there are some great groups/resources/etc out there to help keep these cars on the road. And looking at the way Tesla Service is going, DIYer will need to step in

Re battery failure: the thing most DIYer can't tackle. This is likely to happen. Maybe at 100K maybe at 500K, no one knows. As others have said Tesla has some data on this. I personally hope that battery tech gets cheaper and they make a cheaper pack for the legacy S's to keep them on the road. But there are awesome companies like 057 that span that gap in the meantime with a battery extended warranty: HV Battery Service Plan | 057 Technology

 

[zqmisc]

Good luck with the search OP. You are doing the right due diligence and asking the right questions. I picked up my Model S on the cheap as the front end was crunched in, and I fixed it myself - so the price was too good to pass up. That factored into my risk factor vs the 3 (also the 3 was way too small for my 2 dogs and kiddo) but also I am a big DIYer. I really like the smell and feel of the real leather, and after driving a FSD 3 all last week I prefer the AP1 implementation and use it often on my commute.

My battery for the P90D still delivers 240 miles (even with my lead foot) and when I recently checked the rear LDU speed sensor there was ZERO coolant present (an indication of failure in the LDUs) - these are things to look for on these old S's.

Any 8 year old 100K+ mileage vehicle will need maintenance, and if you rely on dealer service out of warranty alone an old Merc/Audi/(insert luxury car here) will make you go broke. So if you cannot at least do some diagnostics and fixes, you should go with the 3. I have been working on Merc/Audis for years and the S is intimidating, but there are some great groups/resources/etc out there to help keep these cars on the road. And looking at the way Tesla Service is going, DIYer will need to step in

Re battery failure: the thing most DIYer can't tackle. This is likely to happen. Maybe at 100K maybe at 500K, no one knows. As others have said Tesla has some data on this. I personally hope that battery tech gets cheaper and they make a cheaper pack for the legacy S's to keep them on the road. But there are awesome companies like 057 that span that gap in the meantime with a battery extended warranty: HV Battery Service Plan | 057 Technology

Thanks man. I am not a big DIYer, can handle some small stuff. If a model S intimidates you, I can already sense my fear. I could possibly do replacing the handles and other minor stuff. When it gets to suspension/other heavier stuff that would require lifting up the car etc, may not be my cup of tea.
My biggest fear is battery failure in the next couple years, but that seems like anybody's guess.

My gut is saying to look for a lightly driven single owner low mileage 2015 S (85/85D/90/90D doesn't matter) and hope that the battery survives till the car reaches 100K+ miles. If that buys me 5-6 years, hopefully by then, as you said, battery replacement is comparatively cheaper and would justify its cost to replace and keep driving it. Alternately a used Model 3 (is still not an S) is more pragmatic, may give better peace of mind, but I am not seeing their prices to have come down as much as they should, given the recent price decreases on the new ones.

 

[WallysRide]

Thanks man. I am not a big DIYer, can handle some small stuff. If a model S intimidates you, I can already sense my fear. I could possibly do replacing the handles and other minor stuff. When it gets to suspension/other heavier stuff that would require lifting up the car etc, may not be my cup of tea.
My biggest fear is battery failure in the next couple years, but that seems like anybody's guess.

My gut is saying to look for a lightly driven single owner low mileage 2015 S (85/85D/90/90D doesn't matter) and hope that the battery survives till the car reaches 100K+ miles. If that buys me 5-6 years, hopefully by then, as you said, battery replacement is comparatively cheaper and would justify its cost to replace and keep driving it. Alternately a used Model 3 (is still not an S) is more pragmatic, may give better peace of mind, but I am not seeing their prices to have come down as much as they should, given the recent price decreases on the new ones.

RWD vs non-performance AWD (85D, 90D) definitely matters - the non-performance AWD models have the "small" rear drive unit that is much more reliable than the large RDUs in RWD and performance AWD cars. Besides the battery, large RDUs are another expensive item that can go at any time on the older Ss.

Also, you should take a look at Recell's lowest-cost battery replacement option, if this is just going to be a daily commuter car. Recell. You can research on this forum, people have had good experiences with them. And you're lucky to be in the same state as them.

Finally, I would go for a well cared-for (lots of service receipts) higher mileage car over a low-mileage car with little to no paperwork.

 

[zqmisc]

RWD vs non-performance AWD (85D, 90D) definitely matters - the non-performance AWD models have the "small" rear drive unit that is much more reliable than the large RDUs in RWD and performance AWD cars. Besides the battery, large RDUs are another expensive item that can go at any time on the older Ss.

Also, you should take a look at Recell's lowest-cost battery replacement option, if this is just going to be a daily commuter car. Recell. You can research on this forum, people have had good experiences with them. And you're lucky to be in the same state as them.

Finally, I would go for a well cared-for (lots of service receipts) higher mileage car over a low-mileage car with little to no paperwork.

Thanks. Yeah intend for it to be a local/city car. Long trips are a PIA, longer charging stops would make it worse for me. Checked out Recell, it is indeed comforting and having them close by. Does help knowing that the battery replacement cost is reduced to potentially a 3rd of what it could be. Hopefully don't get to use them for a few years at least if I end up buying one

 

[zqmisc]

You all are good folks and a big help. Even if I don't end up buying a used Tesla (not necessarily due to any of your comments, more a function{me}), I've greatly enjoyed having this interchange/conversation. I do hope that I get to enjoy driving a MS/M3. Any additional thoughts are always welcome

 

[zqmisc]

RWD vs non-performance AWD (85D, 90D) definitely matters - the non-performance AWD models have the "small" rear drive unit that is much more reliable than the large RDUs in RWD and performance AWD cars. Besides the battery, large RDUs are another expensive item that can go at any time on the older Ss.

Also, you should take a look at Recell's lowest-cost battery replacement option, if this is just going to be a daily commuter car. Recell. You can research on this forum, people have had good experiences with them. And you're lucky to be in the same state as them.

Finally, I would go for a well cared-for (lots of service receipts) higher mileage car over a low-mileage car with little to no paperwork.

Also thanks for pointing out the D is significant in terms of reliability in the non performance cars. Helps narrow down the search.

 

[AustinP]

Our S from 2015 has been great, and I can certainly understand people wanting to have one.

@wk057 reported it in other threads: 85 batteries failing is mostly due to moisture entering the battery, leading to various cases of failures.
From his experience, it looks like S with VIN above 70k or so, which were built around end of 2014, begin 2015, have a beter waterproof battery, reducing the risk. But there is no guarantee it won't fail someday, like anything.

That being said, Jason provides in the US a great service, from what I read here, so if you go for it, but some day need help, his business could proof very useful: 057 Technology

 

[BrownOuttaSpec]

Take note when comparing cars in the 2015-2016 range there can be a lot of differences. You could pick from a lot of different options unlike today's selection where everything is standard (Helpful link of the changes over the years: link) . You could have test driven a car and liked it and then buy a different one and find that feature X was missing from your purchase. Some things to be mindful of are the following:

• Infotainment upgrade performed?
• Air Suspension
• Subzero weather package (more info)
• Ultri Hi-fi sound
• Premium Package (LED ambient interior lighting, Power Liftgate, etc)
• Sunroof/ solid roof

 

[AustinP]

Take note when comparing cars in the 2015-2016 range there can be a lot of differences. You could pick from a lot of different options unlike today's selection where everything is standard (Helpful link of the changes over the years: link) . You could have test driven a car and liked it and then buy a different one and find that feature X was missing from your purchase. Some things to be mindful of are the following:

• Infotainment upgrade performed?
• Air Suspension
• Subzero weather package (more info)
• Ultri Hi-fi sound
• Premium Package (LED ambient interior lighting, Power Liftgate, etc)
• Sunroof/ solid roof

@BrownOuttaSpec has a great point.

You might need to add to his list a tricky one: the Tech Package: What is the Tesla Tech package?

If the car doesn't have it, for instance, you will not have turn by turn navigation.

For cars with the AP1 hardware, the Tech Package also included the software activation of the Autopilot.

Not sure Tesla still allows to buy or pay to enable those software features.

 

[Carsly2]

Sounds like a used Model 3 might be the ticket. It's a bit smaller inside, and no dash display, but you can pick them up in Tesla's Used section of their web site in the low 30's with regularity with some of the original warranty + 1 year extended warranty + a few years of battery/motor warranty remaining. Substantially reduces your risks and the interior is more modern, center display is brighter and higher resolution and the car will likely have lower miles than what you're considering.

BTW, you may want to consider your tax situation as well since you may be eligible for the $3,750 Federal tax credit + whatever state incentives might be in play in your area taking the price of a new Model 3 RWD to be pretty close to a used LR AWD.

 

[dwbv]

To the OP, how deep are your pockets and your willingness to play with expensive toys? Expensive toys = expensive problems.

Buying a used older Model S is like buying a used older upperclass Mercedes/Audi. It's great when it's great but when it's not, your gonna lose some cash.

There's less parts to the inner workings of Tesla vehicles but those lesser parts are exponentially more expensive.

I'm not trying to scare you. Only want you to be realistic so when the car does require a big or small repair, it's not going to blind-side you because you knew what you were getting into.

Read up my thread where my P85D bit me after a few miles of ownership with a $700 bill + travel + time + lodging + more $$. If you can stomach that then you will be fine.

 

[zqmisc]

Our S from 2015 has been great, and I can certainly understand people wanting to have one.

@wk057 reported it in other threads: 85 batteries failing is mostly due to moisture entering the battery, leading to various cases of failures.
From his experience, it looks like S with VIN above 70k or so, which were built around end of 2014, begin 2015, have a beter waterproof battery, reducing the risk. But there is no guarantee it won't fail someday, like anything.

That being said, Jason provides in the US a great service, from what I read here, so if you go for it, but some day need help, his business could proof very useful: 057 Technology

Good to hear that your S is treating you well. I did read that thread about moisture ingress here and the VIN below 70K at a higher risk. I wish Jason was closer, but always an option to consider. As was pointed out in this thread recell is another option to leverage.

 

[zqmisc]

Take note when comparing cars in the 2015-2016 range there can be a lot of differences. You could pick from a lot of different options unlike today's selection where everything is standard (Helpful link of the changes over the years: link) . You could have test driven a car and liked it and then buy a different one and find that feature X was missing from your purchase. Some things to be mindful of are the following:

• Infotainment upgrade performed?
• Air Suspension
• Subzero weather package (more info)
• Ultri Hi-fi sound
• Premium Package (LED ambient interior lighting, Power Liftgate, etc)
• Sunroof/ solid roof

Thanks for pointing this out. Yeah MCU2 may become a necessary upgrade eventually (not a deal breaker). I've done my homework so kind of have a priority in my head about the must haves vs nice to have.

 

[zqmisc]

@BrownOuttaSpec has a great point.

You might need to add to his list a tricky one: the Tech Package: What is the Tesla Tech package?

If the car doesn't have it, for instance, you will not have turn by turn navigation.

For cars with the AP1 hardware, the Tech Package also included the software activation of the Autopilot.

Not sure Tesla still allows to buy or pay to enable those software features.

Yup..already caught up on these and embedded in my must have list. Thanks though for bringing this up...

 

[zqmisc]

To the OP, how deep are your pockets and your willingness to play with expensive toys? Expensive toys = expensive problems.

Buying a used older Model S is like buying a used older upperclass Mercedes/Audi. It's great when it's great but when it's not, your gonna lose some cash.

There's less parts to the inner workings of Tesla vehicles but those lesser parts are exponentially more expensive.

I'm not trying to scare you. Only want you to be realistic so when the car does require a big or small repair, it's not going to blind-side you because you knew what you were getting into.

Read up my thread where my P85D bit me after a few miles of ownership with a $700 bill + travel + time + lodging + more $$. If you can stomach that then you will be fine.

Yeah checked out your threads, not the best beginnings... Don't have deep pockets, but am expecting some repair costs. My hope is that in comparison to an ICE car, the money you save in gas vs EV, plus Oil changes + Timing belt changes + other maintenance should provide you some buffer for these repair costs. Again, if luck is with you, the battery + motors stay with you longer before giving up.

 

[dwbv]

My hope is that in comparison to an ICE car, the money you save in gas vs EV, plus Oil changes + Timing belt changes + other maintenance should provide you some buffer for these repair costs.

In my opinion, this thought process is not realistic. Maintenance costs in an equivalent ICE car won't transfer as savings in an EV. I also tried to convince myself of this until I did the math. You're best bet is to simply have an EV emergency fund that is already funded on the side.

Also, moving to an EV is not "better". All you're doing is trading ICE problems for EV problems. For example, you trade the ICE cost of a timing belt job for the EV cost of more tires over time. Of course, everyone's cost benefit is specific to socioeconomic and geographical situation however at this point in time in society, EVs are no better or worse than ICE. It's truly not environmentally better, or cheaper to buy, or cheaper to maintain, etc.

If you want the EV experience then go for it knowing what you're getting yourself into and all the headaches that may (and will) come with EV ownership.

Again, if luck is with you, the battery + motors stay with you longer before giving up.

That's a big IF. There's a reason the average Tesla vehicle owner unloads their car right before the warranty expires.

Again, I'm not trying to be debbie-downer here. I simply want new EV owners to go into the EV world with realistic expectations so if and when they exit, they only share positive and insightful experiences with non-EV folks.

 

[zqmisc]

In my opinion, this thought process is not realistic. Maintenance costs in an equivalent ICE car won't transfer as savings in an EV. I also tried to convince myself of this until I did the math. You're best bet is to simply have an EV emergency fund that is already funded on the side.

Also, moving to an EV is not "better". All you're doing is trading ICE problems for EV problems. For example, you trade the ICE cost of a timing belt job for the EV cost of more tires over time. Of course, everyone's cost benefit is specific to socioeconomic and geographical situation however at this point in time in society, EVs are no better or worse than ICE. It's truly not environmentally better, or cheaper to buy, or cheaper to maintain, etc.

If you want the EV experience then go for it knowing what you're getting yourself into and all the headaches that may (and will) come with EV ownership.




That's a big IF. There's a reason the average Tesla vehicle owner unloads their car right before the warranty expires.

Again, I'm not trying to be debbie-downer here. I simply want new EV owners to go into the EV world with realistic expectations so if and when they exit, they only share positive and insightful experiences with non-EV folks.

Agreed. Its more about the desire of the Tesla/EV experience over anything else. You do have to consider the cost saving in gas vs electricity. If you plan to own the car for long, e.g. 150K miles @ 20 mpg = 7500 gallons X $3.5 = $26250. If a Tesla is indeed 100 mpg equivalent, the "gas" cost comes out to = $5250. That is a saving of $21000, atleast on paper, the caveat is long term ownership. At the end I am trying to convince myself to buy a used Tesla S knowing that it is not going to be as rosy as one would like to think.

 

[zqmisc]

Sounds like a used Model 3 might be the ticket. It's a bit smaller inside, and no dash display, but you can pick them up in Tesla's Used section of their web site in the low 30's with regularity with some of the original warranty + 1 year extended warranty + a few years of battery/motor warranty remaining. Substantially reduces your risks and the interior is more modern, center display is brighter and higher resolution and the car will likely have lower miles than what you're considering.

BTW, you may want to consider your tax situation as well since you may be eligible for the $3,750 Federal tax credit + whatever state incentives might be in play in your area taking the price of a new Model 3 RWD to be pretty close to a used LR AWD.

I know logically speaking a used Model 3 sounds more pragmatic and will mitigate the risks that come with an older S. Knowing that the tax credit was 7.5K on the new one just about a month ago, the inside of me can't convince to leave the 3750 on the table, should have done it then. But a used model 3 with maybe EAP can be a decent alternative if priced right.

 

[dwbv]

Agreed. Its more about the desire of the Tesla/EV experience over anything else. You do have to consider the cost saving in gas vs electricity. If you plan to own the car for long, e.g. 150K miles @ 20 mpg = 7500 gallons X $3.5 = $26250. If a Tesla is indeed 100 mpg equivalent, the "gas" cost comes out to = $5250. That is a saving of $21000, atleast on paper, the caveat is long term ownership. At the end I am trying to convince myself to buy a used Tesla S knowing that it is not going to be as rosy as one would like to think.

I don't argue the gas vs electricity savings because you can simply negate this entire argument by just buying a cheaper, well-maintained ICE car with 30+ mpg and that will overall be a better purchase against any EV from a money-saving standpoint.

The thing with EVs is that the entry price-point is so expensive that the savings in gas doesn't really make up for the overall total amount of money that is spent to just start playing in the EV world. Of course, you can go and by a $20k 2013 MS with 175k miles on the clock but then you now face a mystery of stuff that is just waiting to happen and all repairs are entirely out-of-pocket which includes motor, hv battery, and all the consumable parts that has worn over the past 175k miles.

Good, high-quality EVs are expensive and they come with expensive problems. There's no escaping this. It's part of the deal. I say throw "hope" out the window and just jump in knowing things are going to happen but know that the positives will outweigh the negatives and don't let anything bad get you down because you "chose" to own an EV so suck it up and "own" it.