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LOL.... the trolls really can't get their story straight....

As any idiot can see (other than you of course) CO2 leads temperature change by an average of 700-800 years, not the other way around. Chew on that for awhile, Einstein.

It sure as hell is not CO2 since it lags several hundred years behind temperature changes.

Or is this just an admission that he's an idiot? I mean... if 'any idiot can see' but then he thinks it lags.... hey... I'm just connecting dots here....
 
Again, invocation of consensus is NOT science. Are you anti-science?
I am not anti science. The post was about my use of the term denier. I agree with the other post in that I am a denier of flat earth.

As far as consensus, I posted my thoughts on that. If you have cancer you are certainly free to follow the one doctor who says a multivitamins backed by acupuncture is all you need. Personally I would go to several doctors and seek a consensus on what I should do. Again, I think consensus is meaningful. That doesn't mean it is everything. The interesting thing is that when consensus has been wrong, such as Newtonian mechanics near the speed of light, opinion has rapidly changed and the consensus changed to a new one. Science is ever evolving. However, the fact that science evolves doesn't allow for the negation of past data and theories. There is a principle in the philosophy of science that says that a new theory must reduce to the old one in the domain where the old one was valid. I will follow consensus until someone presents a competing theory that explains all of the things the consensus theory explains along with correctly predicting the outcome of an experiment where the two theories disagree.

In terms of AGW, I have yet to see a theory that holds up as well as AGW. Just throwing doubt is the Merchants of Doubt method that the anti-AGW community so often use. The AGW denial community can't have it both ways. They can't throw out 5 different disjoint theories each with major holes and expect me to be convinced. On a risk assessment basis alone, I will follow the consensus view. In several forums I have challenged deniers time and again to pick a theory and prove it. THAT is the scientific way. The denier community reminds me of the politician who attacks another candidate's detailed plan while offering no plan of his own lest he be attacked.
 
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Lets summarize: 18 years ago, ~ 46 climate scientists of repute agreed with the statement that convincing evidence of future catastrophic AGW was not available. That cohort had already shrunk in size 60% in 3 years.

To bring this back to jrad, the petition in no way, shape or form disputed global warming. It also set two high bars (for 20 years ago, anyway):

Catastrophic AGW;
Convincing
evidence

That probably matched the conservative statements of the IPCC at the time.
 
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To bring this back to jrad, the petition in no way, shape or form disputed global warming. It also set two high bars (for 20 years ago, anyway):

Catastrophic AGW;
Convincing
evidence

That probably matched the conservative statements of the IPCC at the time.

And on a related note... if you look at the very few research papers that do not endorse AGW... when pressed on what else could explain the observations the response is....

¯\_(ツ)_/¯

.... compelling stuff....
 
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The denier community reminds me of the politician who attacks another candidate's detailed plan while offering no plan of his own lest he be attacked.
Paul Ryan, early in this current administration, said it candidly after repeated attempts at failed legislation. "We were a 10-year opposition party, where being against things was easy to do,” Ryan said. “You just had to be against it. Now, in three months’ time, we tried to go to a governing party...”
 
How much carbon does the planet's vegetation hold?

Scientists estimate that human actions, from clear-cutting forests to introducing cows to wild grasslands, have cut the carbon storage potential of Earth's plants by half.

Trees and other vegetation are the planet’s carbon storage closet – absorbing and releasing carbon dioxide and other greenhouse gases in an ongoing cycle. But just how big is that potential? A study from December has calculated that the world’s vegetation, from Amazonian rainforests to Eurasian grasslands, may hold about 450 billion tonnes of carbon today.

It’s a colossal capacity, roughly equal to the amount of carbon that humans would pump into the atmosphere over 50 years at current rates of emission. But the study published in Nature also highlights what the world has lost: Researchers crunched the numbers and discovered that the planet’s vegetation could store a lot more carbon, roughly double the amount, if we returned to the forests and grasslands from before the rise of humankind
 
I am not anti science. The post was about my use of the term denier. I agree with the other post in that I am a denier of flat earth.

As far as consensus, I posted my thoughts on that. If you have cancer you are certainly free to follow the one doctor who says a multivitamins backed by acupuncture is all you need. Personally I would go to several doctors and seek a consensus on what I should do. Again, I think consensus is meaningful. That doesn't mean it is everything. The interesting thing is that when consensus has been wrong, such as Newtonian mechanics near the speed of light, opinion has rapidly changed and the consensus changed to a new one. Science is ever evolving. However, the fact that science evolves doesn't allow for the negation of past data and theories. There is a principle in the philosophy of science that says that a new theory must reduce to the old one in the domain where the old one was valid. I will follow consensus until someone presents a competing theory that explains all of the things the consensus theory explains along with correctly predicting the outcome of an experiment where the two theories disagree.

In terms of AGW, I have yet to see a theory that holds up as well as AGW. Just throwing doubt is the Merchants of Doubt method that the anti-AGW community so often use. The AGW denial community can't have it both ways. They can't throw out 5 different disjoint theories each with major holes and expect me to be convinced. On a risk assessment basis alone, I will follow the consensus view. In several forums I have challenged deniers time and again to pick a theory and prove it. THAT is the scientific way. The denier community reminds me of the politician who attacks another candidate's detailed plan while offering no plan of his own lest he be attacked.
Let me tell you that consensus moves at a glacial pace even when proven wrong. A great example are the US nutritional guidelines. Low fat high carb diets have been proven to be non effective as well as harmful. They have been in place and largely followed, for 40+ years, yet we have a diabetes explosion both in US and now China. There are lots of RCTs showing that low carb high fat (ketogenic) diets work better for weight loss, and can even CURE type 2 diabetes. Long-Term Effects of a Novel Continuous Remote Care Intervention Including Nutritional Ketosis for the Management of Type 2 Diabetes: A 2-Year Non-randomized Clinical Trial Yet even posting this here is likely to get me attacked by the nutritional consensus police.
Eventually the guidelines will be re-written to reflect the growing consensus that low fat diets do not work and are harmful, and that high fat low carb diets are healthier. I may however be dead before that happens.

The null hypothesis is that recent global warming is mostly natural variation. If the CAGW theory fails, then we are still left with the null hypothesis.
I know skeptical science will try and say somehow the null hypothesis method of science does not apply to CAGW theory. They are wrong.

What CAGW does not have is a TESTABLE hypothesis. Which again, is how science is done. As an example: The hypothesis should be " a doubling of CO2 levels will cause the GMT to increase by 3C by 2100."
The issue there is that the only way to test the hypothesis is to measure the co2 and temp in 2100. Since we cannot do that, climate scientists build models to try and predict. If those models fail to predict the temperature increase in 15 years for a given level of co2, how in the world can they predict the increase in 80 years? If they fail at shorter time periods, they are not useful.

Give me an example of a peer reviewed paper that had a AGW testable hypothesis and disproved the null. I really am open minded to read it and dissect the methods and conclusions.
 
What CAGW does not have is a TESTABLE hypothesis.

Um.......

Does CO2 block IR? Let's TEST that.


Are CO2 levels rising? Let's TEST that.



The null hypothesis is that recent global warming is mostly natural variation. If the CAGW theory fails, then we are still left with the null hypothesis.

How is natural variation the default 'null hypothesis'? CO2 is what's changed ~40%... should that not be the default? That's the only variable we KNOW alters the radiative balance that has changed significantly enough to have had an effect.....

The long-term impact of CO2 on climate.

So.... the summary of your position is; 'Sure.... CO2 fits, and we've ruled out all the natural variation we know about... but we haven't tested any of the natural variations we DON'T know about'.......... WHAT?!
 
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Let me tell you that consensus moves at a glacial pace even when proven wrong. A great example are the US nutritional guidelines.
The U.S. nutritional guidelines are put together with lots of inputs by lobbyists (just like the anti-AGW political stance). If you want a good source of nutritional information, check out Harvard.

Based on what you say, you don't accept relativity theory either because we don't have the capability of approaching light speed, so it can't be tested. That's really not how science works. Science is a method of investigation (I get very upset when anyone says they believe in science--that brings science down to the level of superstition). Science builds on past discoveries to form hypothesis and then theories. To disprove a theory, a competing theory needs to be developed and then observations made against the two, or more, competing theories. Right now AGW is the only theory that matches the observations, and it's been tested many times in the past 100+ years. We'd be on the road to recovery now if it weren't for the vested interests pouring money into doubt, just the same as the tobacco industry did.
 
Right now AGW is the only theory that matches the observations, and it's been tested many times in the past 100+ years.

We started testing AGW before there was any real AGW...

AGW is possibly the poster-child of testable predictions of a large system. In 1896 Svante Arrhenius predicted that if CO2 levels keeps rising there will be warming... oh look....

Screen Shot 2019-07-16 at 2.30.30 PM.png
 
Please stop using the word denier. It is pejorative and designed to equate anyone who disagrees with CAGW theory to Holocaust deniers. Maybe you didn't know that? If you did already, shame on you.

If we are going to have a lexical objection, may I offer some euphemisms?

--disbeliever
--refuter
--anti

I really think that equating the usage of denier in the global warming debate to the Holocaust is disingenuous. People deny. It is a simple fact of life. It follows linguistically that if a person denies something, he is a denier. Just like someone who lies is a liar. Or someone who cheats is a cheater. Or someone who gives is a giver. It is just the way English works.

Furthermore, calling someone a denier is not pejorative, no more than calling your friend a cuckold if, in fact, he is. Frequently, pejorative must be taken in context. I really do not see how the pro-crowd has used denier in a pejorative rather than in a pithy descriptive fashion.

These might not be words that we wish to hear about ourselves. That I understand. But deny has a negative connotation by definition. You are inferring contempt into the usage that just is not there.
 
If we are going to have a lexical objection, may I offer some euphemisms?

--disbeliever
--refuter
--anti

I really think that equating the usage of denier in the global warming debate to the Holocaust is disingenuous. People deny. It is a simple fact of life. It follows linguistically that if a person denies something, he is a denier. Just like someone who lies is a liar. Or someone who cheats is a cheater. Or someone who gives is a giver. It is just the way English works.

Furthermore, calling someone a denier is not pejorative, no more than calling your friend a cuckold if, in fact, he is. Frequently, pejorative must be taken in context. I really do not see how the pro-crowd has used denier in a pejorative rather than in a pithy descriptive fashion.

These might not be words that we wish to hear about ourselves. That I understand. But deny has a negative connotation by definition. You are inferring contempt into the usage that just is not there.
OK so you are all good with me calling you an alarmist?
 
I really think that equating the usage of denier in the global warming debate to the Holocaust is disingenuous.

No; There's a crucial distinction. A 'denier' is someone that forms an ideologically driven conclusion based on nothing and molests, cherry-picks and distorts reality to fit that conclusion. Science isn't about conclusions. It's about the process of arriving at them. Which is why labs are important in any science class. You're being taught how to independently arrive at these conclusions based on the supporting evidence.

Anyone can go get a spectrometer and test the wavelengths CO2 absorbs and is transparent to. You can independently measure the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. You can tally the CO2 emissions from our addition to fools fuel. Follow the facts.
 
nope
scientist, ok with that, friends with 100's of scientists, ok with that, old enough to not be willing to put up with tripe from wilfully ignorant, ok with that too.
you ok with me calling you a troll?
You already have. I'm used to that. But is it you that is sounding an alarm, trying to get everyone to change the entire world economy by government force, you don't think that is alarmist? Why? Because of the moral superiority of your positions?

p.s. I already know the answers. :rolleyes:
 
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trying to get everyone to change the entire world economy by government force, you don't think that is alarmist?

I've always wondered... what's the totalitarian end game here? HA! Everyone now has solar and drives an EV! Now they don't need to get any of their energy from us! And... wait... how does that help us maintain power?!

It's like all of your thoughts die of mumps around age ~3.... try thinking a few of them through....
 
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No; There's a crucial distinction. A 'denier' is someone that forms an ideologically driven conclusion based on nothing and molests, cherry-picks and distorts reality to fit that conclusion. Science isn't about conclusions. It's about the process of arriving at them. Which is why labs are important in any science class. You're being taught how to independently arrive at these conclusions based on the supporting evidence.

Anyone can go get a spectrometer and test the wavelengths CO2 absorbs and is transparent to. You can independently measure the concentration of CO2 in the atmosphere. You can tally the CO2 emissions from our addition to fools fuel. Follow the facts.

Maybe I was unclear, NWD: The comparison is disingenuous. You should not compare denying genocide with denying whatever scientific theories and research that support global warming. Whether they molest, cherry-pick, or distort is irrelevant. The Holocaust is alive and in the memories of a lot of people worldwide. People died. Can't say the same (yet, anyway) about the current state of affairs.
 
Maybe I was unclear, NWD: The comparison is disingenuous. You should not compare denying genocide with denying whatever scientific theories and research that support global warming. Whether they molest, cherry-pick, or distort is irrelevant. The Holocaust is alive and in the memories of a lot of people worldwide. People died. Can't say the same (yet, anyway) about the current state of affairs.

'Denial' describes the process of an ideologically based conclusion. The process is the same.
 
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