Welcome to Tesla Motors Club
Discuss Tesla's Model S, Model 3, Model X, Model Y, Cybertruck, Roadster and More.
Register

Climate Change / Global Warming Discussion

This site may earn commission on affiliate links.

The G20 bloc of wealthy economies meeting in India failed to reach a consensus on phasing down fossil fuels on Saturday after objections by some producer nations.

Scientists and campaigners are exasperated by international bodies’ foot-dragging on action to curb global heating even as extreme weather across the northern hemisphere underlined the climate crisis facing the world.
 

Why it matters: Nearly every facet of the climate system is flashing red this summer, from record-low sea ice extent in Antarctica to hot tub-like ocean waters surrounding South Florida, and all-time high temperature records set in multiple countries on at least three continents.

Zoom in: Already this month, 14 days have recorded surface air temperatures greater than 17°C (62.6°F) — spikes that have not been seen for roughly 125,000 years.

  • In fact, Wednesday marked the 17th straight day with global temperatures hotter than any prior days on record.
Several more records are all but certain to fall in the coming weeks:

  • July will be the hottest month on Earth since instrument records began in the 19th century.
  • The milestone for the hottest summer worldwide is in jeopardy, according to the European Center for Medium-Range Weather Forecasts.
  • NOAA and the ECMWF has said additional heat waves are likely in coming weeks, particularly if the dominant weather pattern — featuring multiple, stuck heat domes around the hemisphere — is not disrupted.
By the numbers: The heat domes worldwide have been noteworthy for their duration, expansiveness and severity. This is the case even in places famous for hot weather, where people would normally shrug off a hot stretch.

  • The overnight minimum temperature Wednesday morning in Phoenix was a sweltering 97°F, an all time high for that location.
  • On Friday, the city is forecast to have its record 20th-straight day with a high temperature of 110°F or greater.
  • Austin, Texas, has had 10-straight days with a high temperature of 105°F or greater, an unprecedented streak.
 

The planet has about three trillion trees, part of nature’s system for cleaning dirty air — something humans have been making in abundance during the last couple hundred years. In 2015, the news site Science reported that Earth loses about 15 billion trees a year for paper products, farming, and other human-related activities. So, the couple’s success in Brazil has broader implications. One mature tree absorbs more than 48 pounds of air pollution a year, according to the Arbor Day Foundation. It will provide clean, breathable air for up to four people. The Salgados have multiplied that impact by millions. “There is a single being that can transform CO2 to oxygen, which is the tree. We need to replant the forest,” Sebastiao said to BRIGHTVIBES.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DrGriz

The results make it crystal clear that human-caused global heating is already destroying lives and livelihoods across the world, making the need to cut emissions ever more urgent. Such brutal heatwaves are no longer rare, the scientists said, and will worsen as emissions continue to rise. If the world heats by 2C, they will happen every two to five years. A report by leading climate scientists in March endorsed by the world’s governments, said: “There is a rapidly closing window of opportunity to secure a livable and sustainable future for all.” The latest analysis demonstrated how rapidly that window is closing.
 
Having set a record for lowest nadir Antarctic sea ice extent a few months ago, we are well on track for lowest peak extent there:

IMG_4483.jpeg


Charctic Interactive Sea Ice Graph | Arctic Sea Ice News and Analysis
 
Im of the opinion we are going to innovate ourselves out of this climate change problem. Anyone else?

Its better than #doomerthoughts. Sending good vibes in this thread.
We already have innovated enough to get out of this problem.
Unfortunately the entrenched monopoly interests have captured government and are preventing implementation at the necessary scale.
 
We already have innovated enough to get out of this problem.
Unfortunately the entrenched monopoly interests have captured government and are preventing implementation at the necessary scale.
We need an International Organization leading Governments all over the world to implement the changes that are necessary to work out the Climate Change issue IMHO.
This matter is global and has to be worked out at global level. We cannot depend upon the interests of single Governments.
 
  • Like
Reactions: dhrivnak
It has been 20-years since I’ve run a climate model, so it has taken me a while to read the latest Hansen et al paper, “Global warming in the pipeline” but that was time well spent.

http://www.columbia.edu/~jeh1/Documents/PipelinePaper.2023.07.05.pdf

First a brief summation of the paper. Then some personal comments.

It is quite a sweeping tour de force of the subject, 64-pages in all. Of this 47-pages are the core material, the first 44 of which are very succinct and well set out scientific statements coupled with a historical account of where the errors and unknowns are buried in past work. The last 3 pages are policy and political proposals that are less convincing and remind me that Hansen the activist is less welcome than Hansen the scientist. There then follow 9 pages of supplementary material that is interesting, and after that the citations.

The core results in a very convincing history-matched model of 66-million years of recent climate history, the Cenozoic era using some newly revised key terms in the model.

1690371108968.png


1690371122068.png



Rather unfortunately the implication is that the 450ppm CO2 that seems already baked in will in turn yield an approx. 2.5C temperature rise by 2050, and a likely long run rise of 10C with a concomitant loss of most (if not all) of the Antarctic and Greenland ice sheets.

1690371132687.png


Hansen opines that the loss of the ice sheets and the associated 60m sea level rise is not baked-in and proposes a mixture of policy options and technology solutions to avoid this. That opinion runs counter to the science & policy history he himself set out in the paper and it is worth a good look at the long-run history where 450ppm spans the onset of the Antarctic ice sheet.

1690371150340.png




There is another paper provisionally called “Sea level rise in the pipeline” in preparation. Given the very acerbic – and imho correct – comments that Hansen makes re the censorship, blackballing, gradualism etc operating in IPCC that will make for interesting reading.

=======

Now for my comments.

I am not the right person to critique the science presented, and without an IGCM to play with I cannot explore the implications. However I can talk about the energy/carbon input implications.

I am not at all surprised that humanity has made very little quantitative progress on carbon emissions in the last 30-years as there simply has not been the political will to do so, indeed the vested interests have been in no doing so. Hence the last 35-years of very considerable carbon emissions now in the system. Nuclear has for many reasons been a sideshow, and unlike Hansen I think it will remain so. However there has been considerable qualitative progress to the point where the renewables options are now making considerable material difference in carbon emissions because they are cheaper than the corresponding fossil options over the full lifecycle. Increasingly the upfront cash cost disadvantage is diminishing and they are therefore making up a substantial amount of the new energy use capacity that gets installed each year, to the point where “peak fossil” is likely to happen at some point in the next few years, most probably in 2024-2025.

1690371168142.png


Once at peak fossil the normal commercial/economic incentives combine in a virtuous cycle with fossil fuel reservoir depletions and equipment obsolescence so as to drive the global energy system very rapidly towards near-full electrification and near-full decarbonisation. This is because it is then cheaper to go to renewables and electrical technologies than to stay with fossils and thermal technologies. Very quickly developing new oil & gas reservoirs, or new coal fields, becomes highly unattractive.

1690371178739.png


A side effect of this is that energy consumption reduces in “direct” terms, because the concept of thermal efficiency is no longer useful, even though total energy consumption rises as the population grows, and per capita continues to rise as the individual humans become wealthier.

1690371189323.png


Of course this only works with very large scale storage deployments, nevertheless these are far smaller than the extractive (mining) that currently takes place in the fossil fuel industries.

1690371203263.png


Not all fossil extraction is used as energy, and there are some energy uses that may be more problematic to eliminate than others. The most important ones are aviation fuels; primary steel coal use; petrochemicals; and fertiliser. Rather unhelpfully the IEA has withdrawn their Sankey diagram tool (Energy Sankey – Data Tools - IEA). Petrochemical use is 12% of global oil & gas demand including fertiliser production (The Future of Petrochemicals – Analysis - IEA) further quantified in (https://www.researchgate.net/public...m_Fossil_Fuel_Feedstocks_to_Chemical_Products). Primary steelmaking uses 12% of global coal (Coal demand share worldwide by sector | Statista ). Aviation and shipping represent 8% and 7% of global oil consumption (Fuels in Aviation and Shipping) . Also of course there is the cement industry emissions. Various approaches can reduce these substantially and I personally need to do more to understand this area’s materiality in the global emissions.

Nonetheless directionally my own forecasting suggests that the vast bulk of human emissions can be substituted by non-fossil sources, which my own modelling suggests would be some 90% by 2040 on the basis of the observable trends and rates of change in those trends, combined with identifiable constraints. This gives rise to some hope.

=========

What I am unclear about is to what extent that then might give a survivable outcome for humanity if it is then just left to run to equilibrium conditions, and over what timescale this might come to pass. The key issues being temperature rise and sea level rise; with further issues of extreme weather events incidence increasing; and possible breakdowns of ocean currents leading to even more dramatic events, e.g. some modelling has an AMOC (Gulf Stream) failure in approx. 2050,

Warning of a forthcoming collapse of the Atlantic meridional overturning circulation - Nature Communications

The Hansen paper suggests that the rates may be about to speed up as the lags get worked out of the system. They then go on to suggest further interventions – both atmospheric carbon extraction; and insolation reduction strategies (aerosols; mirrors). But are these required ?

There used to be large scale ‘toy’ IGCMs that one could run in a Windows environment. That might be the next step for me.

===========

Q1. Comments welcome.
Q2. Anyone hereabouts got a basic IGCM for me to play with ? Ideally Windows ....

PS. A helpful sea level rise tool is this one : Flood Map: Elevation Map, Sea Level Rise Map
 
Last edited:

University of California, Los Angeles scientists have found that climate change caused the Colorado River basin to lose 10 trillion gallons of water from 2000 to 2021. That’s a volume that would fill Lake Mead, one of the river’s major reservoirs. About 40 million people in the West, including much of Southern California, rely on Colorado River water for much of their supplies.

But the study sheds new light on how much “anthropogenic,” or human-caused, climate change is responsible for drying out the river. From 1880 to 2021, the temperature in the Colorado River basin warmed by nearly 3 degrees Fahrenheit, reducing runoff from the region’s snowpack by at least 10.3%, the scientists reported.
 
Maybe we shouldn't be so discouraged..

Stanford engineering professor and renewable energy expert Mark Z Jacobson tweeted the other day, “Given that scientists who study 100% renewable energy systems are unanimous that it can be done why do we hear daily on twitter and everywhere else by those who don’t study such systems that it can’t be done?” A significant percentage of the general public speaks of climate change with a strange combination of confidence and defeatism: confidence in positions often based on inaccurate or outdated or maybe no information; defeatism about what we can do to make a livable future. Maybe they just get their facts from other doom evangelists, who flourish on the internet, no matter how much reputable scientists demonstrate their errors.

Most positive climate news doesn’t make very dramatic reading, and I usually find it in technical journals, tweets from scientists and policymakers, and climate-specific news services. It’s often about incremental stuff, like that we’re deploying more wind and solar and using less fossil fuel to generate electricity. Or it’s about legislation or technical things like new battery storage materials or less polluting concrete formulas. Or it unpacks surveys showing that most people support climate action. Mostly they tell us that we have the capacity or are increasing the capacity to do what will limit the crisis. They’re interim reports, and the public often seems to want final scores, to know how the story will end. We don’t know because we’re deciding that now.
 
And it seems as if the issues with models have not budged much in 20-years



The issue with these sorts of approaches is that they may help in modelling an existing system, but give little insight into how/whem/what of if a new system becomes established.

Well the good news is that the much bigger / faster computers are coming.
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: DrGriz

How to respond to the avalanche of record-breaking extreme weather and temperatures terrorising the planet? For many scientists it is a moment of genuine despair, but also a time to resist climate doomism.

A logical response to all this would be to acknowledge it is an unfolding emergency, and act accordingly. The good news from scientists is that rapid action can still make a significant difference and limit future damage. It would mean ruling a line under new fossil fuel developments where there are alternatives – that is, virtually all of them – and taking a war-footing approach that genuinely prioritised accelerating the transition that every major scientific body and government agrees is necessary. It wouldn’t mean pretending the gas industry is a climate solution, or that nuclear energy is a serious climate solution in Australia given the costs, timescales and social licence challenges. Nor is carbon capture and storage on track to be more than a niche technology, and paying for carbon offsets can’t justify fossil fuel use.
 
And it seems as if the issues with models have not budged much in 20-years



The issue with these sorts of approaches is that they may help in modelling an existing system, but give little insight into how/whem/what of if a new system becomes established.

Well the good news is that the much bigger / faster computers are coming.
But Hausfather found for the planet as a whole – both on the land and sea surface – temperatures were within what most climate models projected, just at the hotter end of it. Put another way: this is not actually worse than we expected. It is the brutal reality of what scientists told us would happen

 

An alliance of rightwing groups has crafted an extensive presidential proposal to bolster the planet-heating oil and gas industry and hamstring the energy transition, it has emerged. Against a backdrop of record-breaking heat and floods this year, the $22m endeavor, Project 2025, was convened by the notorious rightwing, climate-denying thinktank the Heritage Foundation, which has ties to fossil fuel billionaire Charles Koch.

Meanwhile, House GOP members are also continuing to attack federal climate funding in their spending bill proposals, putting governmental functions at risk.

Republicans in Congress continue to show they will stop at nothing to undermine environmental protections and attack anything that would help addressing the climate crisis,” said David Shadburn, a senior government affairs advocate at the League of Conservation Voters.
 

Fossil fuels are causing this damage. Therefore, the only way out of this heat nightmare is to end them. No amount of tree planting, recycling, carbon offsetting, or wishful carbon-capture thinking will ever change this. The longer we allow the fossil fuel industry to exist, the more irreversible damage to Earth the people who profit from it will continue to knowingly cause. We are careening toward fossil-fueled heat waves that will kill over a million people in single events. And it will not plateau there: more fossil fuels, more heat, more death. The only way out is to end fossil fuels.

Biden’s refusal to declare a climate emergency and his eagerness to push new pipelines and new drilling – at an even faster pace than Trump – goes against science, goes against common sense, goes against life on Earth. In the world of politics-as-usual, with its short-term goals and calculus of “safer to follow than to lead”, I suppose there are reasons and rationalizations for this planet-destroying choice. But speaking as a scientist, it seems ignorant and short-sighted. It’s certainly a form of climate denial. And I have no doubt that fossil fuel executives and lobbyists – and those who chose to stand with them – will, in the future, be considered criminals.

Declaring a climate emergency would unleash additional powers such as banning oil exports and further accelerating renewable energy buildout on a scale not seen since the mobilization for the second world war. It would send an unmistakable signal to investors still living in the past, to universities that have been shamefully slow to divest, to media outlets that have failed to connect the dots, to all the dangerously lagging institutions of our society. And it would be a desperately needed win for climate activists
 
Meanwhile, the rich capitalists remain in control


CHENNAI, India/BRUSSELS, July 28 (Reuters) - The Group of 20 (G20) major nations failed on Friday to agree on concrete targets to cut dangerous emissions, releasing only a statement that dismissed current measures to address climate change as "insufficient". The impasse - the latest in a string of inconclusive international conferences - came days after scientists again raised the alarm, saying human-induced climate change has played an "absolutely overwhelming" role in the extreme heatwaves that have swept across North America, Europe and China.

The failure to reach an agreement comes just a week after the G20 major economies' disagreement on phasing down fossil fuels following objections by some producer nations.