Commercial Crew Transportation Capability (CCtCap) SpaceX and Boeing Developments

[Nikxice]

Seeing what they now know or still don't know, I wonder if NASA might have written a different rule mandating a full-up In-Flight Abort test for both SpaceX and Boeing. Making the IFA optional put Boeing straight on the cheaper path. Since at least one of the Starliner anomalies involved a critical vehicle separation, I'm guessing that everyone just relied on some trustworthy Boeing software to run that Atlas booster simulation. Wonder what else they could've learned.

One thing to feel good about. Doug and Bob will no doubt have supreme confidence in the code SpaceX has written, checked and rechecked for their upcoming DM-2 mission.

 

[e-FTW]

It was quite telling for Jim Bridenstine to open the conference call with that “numerous issues” statement. Oy.

 

[SmartElectric]

One thing to feel good about. Doug and Bob will no doubt have supreme confidence in the code SpaceX has written

I chuckled at the names ... as a Canadian "hoser", the show actually discussed topics like the Canad-arm :
Bob and Doug McKenzie - Wikipedia

Among the topics discussed were snow routes, the Canadian-built robot arm on the Space Shuttle

 

[Grendal]

SpaceX is ready to go.
NASA confirms Crew Dragon almost ready, mostly paperwork left – Ars Technica

 

[bxr140]

What the heck has Boeing been doing?

Total speculation: Boeing is trying to evolve their [presumably] old school software development processes into something closer to what we see with typical tech companies (including SpaceX). But, in likely a number of ways they are, as the kids say, Doing It Wrong. For instance, the lead on the software team is probably twice the age that they should be to be successful ...

 

[Grendal]

Scott Manley goes over the more recent Boeing problems...

 

[Cosmacelf]

Total speculation: Boeing is trying to evolve their [presumably] old school software development processes into something closer to what we see with typical tech companies (including SpaceX). But, in likely a number of ways they are, as the kids say, Doing It Wrong. For instance, the lead on the software team is probably twice the age that they should be to be successful ...

Bad code is one thing, but bad QA is inexcusable. A minimally competent engineering manager would be QAing the snot out of rocket code. And it isn't as if Boeing didn't have the budget for it. At the end of the day, it is incompetence.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Scott Manley goes over the more recent Boeing problems...

Our posts crossed in the ether. Yeah, I agree with Scott. If the mainline code is this buggy, imagine how many bugs are in the code pieces that only get executed for less typical scenarios. Bullet proof, this is not. Also, I'm appalled with Boeing's lack of candor.

 

[bxr140]

Bad code is one thing, but bad QA is inexcusable. A minimally competent engineering manager would be QAing the snot out of rocket code. And it isn't as if Boeing didn't have the budget for it. At the end of the day, it is incompetence.

Don't disagree. Was just trying to answer the question as to why they're having problems now when, ostensibly, they haven't had these kinds of serious problems in the past.

 

[ecarfan]

Love seeing these fired up SpaceX employees!

 

[e-FTW]

Total speculation: Boeing is trying to evolve their [presumably] old school software development processes into something closer to what we see with typical tech companies (including SpaceX). But, in likely a number of ways they are, as the kids say, Doing It Wrong. For instance, the lead on the software team is probably twice the age that they should be to be successful ...

Ageism? I seriously doubt age has anything to do with anything here.

 

[Cosmacelf]

Ageism? I seriously doubt age has anything to do with anything here.

I agree. It could even be the opposite where they don’t have enough experienced developers and instead have a bunch of inexperienced coders. Or they outsourced everything to Indian contractors who, again, don’t have the experience to write highly reliable systems. We really don’t know. All we know are the results: they kinda suck.

 

[bxr140]

Ageism? I seriously doubt age has anything to do with anything here.

Sure it does.

You think SpaceX would be anywhere near as successful as they are if they weren't staffed by thousands of young and willing people?People that don't have a problem bucking legacy concepts for new, unproven methods? SpaceX actively targets that kind of person for employment and they grind up and spit out anyone who doesn't conform.

I agree. It could even be the opposite where they don’t have enough experienced developers and instead have a bunch of inexperienced coders. Or they outsourced everything to Indian contractors who, again, don’t have the experience to write highly reliable systems. We really don’t know.

We absolutely know they didn't outsource, and it is all but certain their team is very experienced in designing and building space vehicles.

 

[bmah]

Total speculation: Boeing is trying to evolve their [presumably] old school software development processes into something closer to what we see with typical tech companies (including SpaceX). But, in likely a number of ways they are, as the kids say, Doing It Wrong. For instance, the lead on the software team is probably twice the age that they should be to be successful ...

You think SpaceX would be anywhere near as successful as they are if they weren't staffed by thousands of young and willing people?People that don't have a problem bucking legacy concepts for new, unproven methods? SpaceX actively targets that kind of person for employment and they grind up and spit out anyone who doesn't conform.

Old dogs can't learn new tricks, is that it? Stereotype much?

Bruce.

 

[e-FTW]

Sure it does.

You think SpaceX would be anywhere near as successful as they are if they weren't staffed by thousands of young and willing people?People that don't have a problem bucking legacy concepts for new, unproven methods? SpaceX actively targets that kind of person for employment and they grind up and spit out anyone who doesn't conform.

You specifically said the lead was probably older.
I know older engineering managers that kick serious butt. And younger ones that do not.

This is more about culture than age. The age of the groups, offices or or programs can definitely be a factor here though, as their culture might be harder to change by individuals.

 

[bxr140]

I know older engineering managers that kick serious butt. And younger ones that do not.

Sure, as does everyone, including in the space industry. Didn’t suggest otherwise.

This is more about culture than age.

It is no secret that in the space industry they are basically one in the same. It’s no secret that SpaceX targets younger people willing to pivot from what they know; it’s no secret that at an incumbent Aerospace giant, years of experience, ones ability to conform, and ones ability to endure the corporate game are the major pillars of leadership.

If you’ve ever seen how Legacy Space approaches software development, it very much parallels the way Legacy Space approaches most aspects of a project: Maximize heritage and existing/qualified effort, minimize white page activity. Unless you bring in someone familiar with development concepts that are more aligned with Tech, you’re going to have a lot of growing pains transitioning the legacy team to more agile (pun intended) approaches.

 

[e-FTW]

NASA officially stating SpaceX will be first to launch humans: https://twitter.com/commercial_crew/status/1228449728121253889?s=21
This is a little bit of a “yeah we know” moment, but still important.

With Boeing’s multiple issues, am starting to wonder what the contingency plan is: can SpaceX double theIr workload? Or will NASA have to buy more Soyuz seats to compensate? From what I remember, the Crew program has a launch planned every 6 months alternating between both companies.

 

[ecarfan]

NASA officially stating SpaceX will be first to launch humans: https://twitter.com/commercial_crew/status/1228449728121253889?s=21

That NASA tweet appears to have been deleted. Hmm....

 

[Nikxice]

That NASA tweet appears to have been deleted. Hmm....

At least for the moment, the content of the original Tweet can still be viewed on NASA's flickr webpage. To confirm there's been a change in the wording, a reddit user also linked a waybackmachine page to the original content of the Tweet, which was posted Friday on NASA's Commercial Crew Blog.

The SpaceX Crew Dragon spacecraft for the first crew launch from American soil since 2011, has arrived at the launch site. NASA and SpaceX are preparing for the agency's first flight test with astronauts to the International Space Station as part of the agency's Commercial Crew Program.
The full page is here. SpaceX Crew Dragon Arrives for Demo-2 Mission – SpaceX

NASA's Commercial Crew Blog has now been revised with some subtle changes, giving more ownership to SpaceX.
The SpaceX Crew Dragon spacecraft for its first crew launch from American soil has arrived at the launch site. NASA and SpaceX are preparing for the company’s first flight test with astronauts to the International Space Station as part of the agency’s Commercial Crew Program. SpaceX Crew Dragon Arrives for Demo-2 Mission – SpaceX

There's some speculation that perhaps the original Tweet got under Boeing's thin skin or perhaps someone at NASA thought it could?

 

[Cosmacelf]

At least for the moment, the content of the original Tweet can still be viewed on NASA's flickr webpage. To confirm there's been a change in the wording, a reddit user also linked a waybackmachine page to the original content of the Tweet, which was posted Friday on NASA's Commercial Crew Blog.

The SpaceX Crew Dragon spacecraft for the first crew launch from American soil since 2011, has arrived at the launch site. NASA and SpaceX are preparing for the agency's first flight test with astronauts to the International Space Station as part of the agency's Commercial Crew Program.
The full page is here. SpaceX Crew Dragon Arrives for Demo-2 Mission – SpaceX

NASA's Commercial Crew Blog has now been revised with some subtle changes, giving more ownership to SpaceX.
The SpaceX Crew Dragon spacecraft for its first crew launch from American soil has arrived at the launch site. NASA and SpaceX are preparing for the company’s first flight test with astronauts to the International Space Station as part of the agency’s Commercial Crew Program. SpaceX Crew Dragon Arrives for Demo-2 Mission – SpaceX

There's some speculation that perhaps the original Tweet got under Boeing's thin skin or perhaps someone at NASA thought it could?

Gawd this is all transparent bull cookies. Anyone in the aerospace industry has got to see through this PR spin. It’s making Boeing look even worse in the eyes of industry people, if that’s possible. And regular technology minded people have the indispensable Eric Berger to keep them informed of Boeing’s cock ups.

Next shoes to drop. NASA’s decision to force Boeing to do another $400M test. What are the odds Boeing requests and is granted more money? What about Boeing abandoning the project? What will the NASA organizational review turn up? Will we really find out what they find out?

I know Boeing is a really big company, but I really do wonder if they are mortally wounded with the 737 Max screw up and then this. Is it symptoms of a dead company walking or just temporary bad engineering management that can get righted? Bad time to be looking for good employees right now...