Constant vibration - cannot pin down

[hari-bhari]

I've got an '18 LR RWD. Pretty much as soon as I bought it I got 19" turbines from EV Wheel direct. I've had two sets of tires - Bridgestone QuietTrack and Pirelli P7 AS Plus 3 (which are the quietest tires I have ever owned).

However, I have ALWAYS had a mild vibration at highway speeds that I can't get rid of, on both sets of tires. The vibration is mild, but if you look at a water bottle or the wheel you can see a very consistent rhythmic vibration while on a smooth road.

Here is what I have tried and results. I'll focus on the Pirellis since I've had them on for a year. Here is what I have done, in order:

1. Multiple rotate and road force balance - has caused slight worsening or improvements but never eliminated (even on the Bridgestones)
2. Index mount each tire to wheel to minimize deviations - all came within spec, resulted in improvement but not elimination
3. New tire - discount tire was kind enough to replace the tire that was 'furthest' from zero index and did not result in any improvement
4. Testing and straightening all wheels - Finally I decided the wheels must have been out of round from the factory (EVwheeldirect is now OOB but I am sure these are cheap cast alloys). I was actually in there when they did dismounted and tested. Two wheels were 35/1000" out of round, straightened to 20/1000. The remaining two were only 15/1000" out. So all wheels are now 15-20/1000" out of round which is within tolerance even for OEM wheels. This resulted in the most improvement to date, but not elimination.

What else is there to try? Alignment was done at Tesla and is in spec, tires are wearing evenly. No abnormal sounds so I don't think it's a wheel hub. I have noticed mild improvements with all the above things so my feeling is still that it is wheel/tire related but not sure what to do next.

Open to ideas. Thanks in advance.

 

[RayK]

Do what I do for noise / vibration issues.... turn the stereo up to 11 .

I'm assuming that you don't have the factory rims/tires (18"?) any more to swap back in and see if the vibration goes away. That would at least point to the wheels/tires being the issue. Has the tire shop checked your suspension? The front upper control arms were subject to a re-seal service bulletin (usually causes a squeak; not sure if that could lead to a vibration). Maybe the brake rotors are out of round? That vibration will usually be amplified when applying the brakes. Wheel bearings?

My own 2018 LR RWD had recently developed a quite noticeable vibration at 45-50MPH and above. It happened almost overnight. I put it off for a couple of weeks but then finally decided to do something about it as a potential long distance trip was coming up. The first thing I thought of was the issue: tire balance. Got all four re-balanced and the vibration totally went away. 2 weeks later I replaced the factory 18" MXM4s with Potenza RE980AS+ so that was $80 down the drain. There was a sale at the local tire store and although I still had some tread left in the Michelins (4/32nds), I figured I'd take advantage of the sale.

 

[hari-bhari]

Unfortunately I don’t have another set of wheels and tires I could try, that would be easiest

 

[rpiotro]

Does it do it all of the time on all surfaces? Here is a post I made on the Q50 forum. The never discussed problem.

This is something I discovered 35 years ago. It reared its head again when I had the Hakkapeliitta run-flats on my Q50. And now again with those crappy Michelin MXM4 acoustics (now gone) that came as OEM equipment on my Tesla.

If you've ever watched a crew pave a road with asphalt you will see how it happens. The hot asphalt is dumped into a spreader and then compacted with one of these. A vibrating compactor.

https://www.cat.com/en_US/products/new/equipment/compactors/tandem-vibratory-rollers/1000027463.html

The result is that the surface is not really flat like you get with concrete but contains what I call micro ripples. Depending on the car and tires it will manifest itself with a high frequency, low amplitude vibration felt more in the steering wheel than the car itself. It seems to peak at about 70 MPH. Again, depending on car and tires.

You can confirm this. If you are cruising at highway speeds and feel the vibration but it disappears when you go over an overpass that was paved in concrete there it is. You can also get a visual confirmation. We have a six lane suburban highway nearby that I drive on frequently. The old bypass route before the interstates. It was repaved recently. I noticed it on a day where it had just rained so the road was wet. The sky was overcast and my headlights were on. Those ripples stood out like a sore thumb. Very obvious. Try it yourself.

BTW, on a different note that highway was once lined with the old Nike missile sites. A Cold War relic. The Nike Hercules could carry a nuclear warhead. A surface to air missile. With a nuclear warhead. Sure glad they never used one of those.

 

[hari-bhari]

Thanks for the tips - I noticed it on multiple highway surfaces but I'll see if it changes on an overpass

 

[afadeev]

I've got an '18 LR RWD. Pretty much as soon as I bought it I got 19" turbines from EV Wheel direct.

Hint #1: You are rolling on cheap Chinese knock-off wheels.

However, I have ALWAYS had a mild vibration at highway speeds that I can't get rid of, on both sets of tires. The vibration is mild, but if you look at a water bottle or the wheel you can see a very consistent rhythmic vibration while on a smooth road.

Hint #2: The vibration persists after swapping tire sets. So it's is most likely not the tires.
That leaves two usual suspects: cheap uneven and unbalanced wheels, or sub-optimal tire shop balancing.

Here is what I have tried and results. I'll focus on the Pirellis since I've had them on for a year. Here is what I have done, in order:

1. Multiple rotate and road force balance - has caused slight worsening or improvements but never eliminated (even on the Bridgestones)
2. Index mount each tire to wheel to minimize deviations - all came within spec, resulted in improvement but not elimination
3. New tire - discount tire was kind enough to replace the tire that was 'furthest' from zero index and did not result in any improvement
4. Testing and straightening all wheels - Finally I decided the wheels must have been out of round from the factory (EVwheeldirect is now OOB but I am sure these are cheap cast alloys). I was actually in there when they did dismounted and tested. Two wheels were 35/1000" out of round, straightened to 20/1000. The remaining two were only 15/1000" out. So all wheels are now 15-20/1000" out of round which is within tolerance even for OEM wheels. This resulted in the most improvement to date, but not elimination.

I give you credit for trying all the usual things I would recommend.
Unfortunately, cheap wheels do NOT need to be out of round to vibrate. Cheap casting techniques can produce uneven flow of metal across the circumference of the wheel, leaving voids and locking imbalance into the cast.
Sometimes you can compensate for the defective wheels with careful application of weights during balancing. Other times, you can't.

Alignment was done at Tesla and is in spec, tires are wearing evenly. No abnormal sounds so I don't think it's a wheel hub. I have noticed mild improvements with all the above things so my feeling is still that it is wheel/tire related but not sure what to do next. Open to ideas.

In all likelihood, your problem is with the defective cast wheels.
The question is what to do about it.
Ideas (roughly in the order of cost and preference):

1. [Optional]: Swap sets of wheels+tires with a friend, to confirm that it's the wheels, and not something else in the car (dying shocks, bushings, etc.).
2. [Marginal]: Move worst balanced wheels to the rear, where the vibration will at least not propagate to the steering wheel (you may have done this already). Usually, you can at least identify the worst wheel(-s) and know where to focus your remedial efforts.
3. Find another well-regarded racing tire shop (check with local SCCA, PCA, or BMWCCA folks) to re-balance all the wheels. Your tire shop seams competent (is it a chain?), but it could also be that they haven't calibrated their balancing machine lately (or correctly), or that they simply don't know how to use it properly. There is a slight possibility that the root cause is with the tire shop, so eliminate that by getting a second opinion from another one.
4. Buy new set of quality wheels and cut your losses.

HTH,
a

 

[hari-bhari]

Really helpful - I suspected this imbalance was possible with cast wheels even if they are in round. I use discount tire and I think their machines are good since they do all our other cars too. I'll give it one last shot to re-index or try new tires now that the wheels are round, and then try a racing shop to balance.

Otherwise its time for a set of flow forged or OEM wheels.

 

[TheRealM3]

Try deflating the tires to like 38 - 40psi.

 

[father_of_6]

So all wheels are now 15-20/1000" out of round which is within tolerance even for OEM wheels. This resulted in the most improvement to date, but not elimination.

My Model 3 was as smooth as ice skating when I first bought it, but within the first year had rotational road noise. Road force balance, alignment, and new tires did nothing to resolve the issue. Then I replaced the wheels with another set of the same OEMs that I picked up from another owner here on TMC (from their brand new M3 that they replaced with something else immediately after purchase).

Replacing the wheels solved the issue, however it has recurred over time as the new wheels have suffered their share of potholes and curb dings. It's not as bad as it was with the first set, and I've learned to lived with it.

I suspect that most wheels are out of round, but engine noises in an ICE hide a lot of the wheel noise, while EVs are so quiet that it becomes prominent... and because they're rotational it can be rather exhausting (whaw, whaw, whaw, whaw for 7 hours on the thruway can be super energy draining to a human - it's like a sonic weapon).

I really don't think there's any way to "solve" this... because new perfectly round wheels will just end up slightly out of round from potholes, curbs, etc over time. Best case scenario is that you can keep it to a minimum level that's acceptable road noise. That's where I'm at now.

Disclaimer: this is just my laymen's experience. I don't track my car, no mods, not a "car enthusiast" in the typical sense, never owned any sports cars, just a regular driving citizen (who stumbled on the world's best sedan). I'm happy and eager to receive conflicting/correcting information about this from those with more knowledge.

 

[nate704]

buy new wheels and tires pkg from Tesla = problem solved.

BTW, Do your aftermarket wheels have the proper hub bore diameter, exactly same as the OEM Tesla wheels?

 

[hari-bhari]

buy new wheels and tires pkg from Tesla = problem solved.

BTW, Do your aftermarket wheels have the proper hub bore diameter, exactly same as the OEM Tesla wheels?

I just don't like the sport wheels otherwise plenty available online. Yes checked the hub bore and it sits flush. Plus conical lug nuts are self centering

 

[Yozer34]

My Model 3 was as smooth as ice skating when I first bought it, but within the first year had rotational road noise. Road force balance, alignment, and new tires did nothing to resolve the issue. Then I replaced the wheels with another set of the same OEMs that I picked up from another owner here on TMC (from their brand new M3 that they replaced with something else immediately after purchase).

Replacing the wheels solved the issue, however it has recurred over time as the new wheels have suffered their share of potholes and curb dings. It's not as bad as it was with the first set, and I've learned to lived with it.

I suspect that most wheels are out of round, but engine noises in an ICE hide a lot of the wheel noise, while EVs are so quiet that it becomes prominent... and because they're rotational it can be rather exhausting (whaw, whaw, whaw, whaw for 7 hours on the thruway can be super energy draining to a human - it's like a sonic weapon).

I really don't think there's any way to "solve" this... because new perfectly round wheels will just end up slightly out of round from potholes, curbs, etc over time. Best case scenario is that you can keep it to a minimum level that's acceptable road noise. That's where I'm at now.

Disclaimer: this is just my laymen's experience. I don't track my car, no mods, not a "car enthusiast" in the typical sense, never owned any sports cars, just a regular driving citizen (who stumbled on the world's best sedan). I'm happy and eager to receive conflicting/correcting information about this from those with more knowledge.

I seem to have the same problem you're describing, but I'm not sure if mine is rotational per se. Did yours sound anything like this?

 

[father_of_6]

Hmm... it's really tough to tell from a video. It's been a while, but I don't remember if mine was that prominent. It probably was though.

I think the only way to track it down is trying "all the things".

 

[XPsionic]

If you've got the tires road force balanced and the wheels are not bent, and the wheels are hub-centric, you might want to look at getting the axle shafts checked out. There were other threads on this forum where axles were the culprit.

 

[RonAz]

Jeep Wranglers can have this same problem with OEM wheels. After market wheels get rid of the rumble.

 

[gtgarner]

I've got an '18 LR RWD. Pretty much as soon as I bought it I got 19" turbines from EV Wheel direct. I've had two sets of tires - Bridgestone QuietTrack and Pirelli P7 AS Plus 3 (which are the quietest tires I have ever owned).

However, I have ALWAYS had a mild vibration at highway speeds that I can't get rid of, on both sets of tires. The vibration is mild, but if you look at a water bottle or the wheel you can see a very consistent rhythmic vibration while on a smooth road.

Here is what I have tried and results. I'll focus on the Pirellis since I've had them on for a year. Here is what I have done, in order:

1. Multiple rotate and road force balance - has caused slight worsening or improvements but never eliminated (even on the Bridgestones)
2. Index mount each tire to wheel to minimize deviations - all came within spec, resulted in improvement but not elimination
3. New tire - discount tire was kind enough to replace the tire that was 'furthest' from zero index and did not result in any improvement
4. Testing and straightening all wheels - Finally I decided the wheels must have been out of round from the factory (EVwheeldirect is now OOB but I am sure these are cheap cast alloys). I was actually in there when they did dismounted and tested. Two wheels were 35/1000" out of round, straightened to 20/1000. The remaining two were only 15/1000" out. So all wheels are now 15-20/1000" out of round which is within tolerance even for OEM wheels. This resulted in the most improvement to date, but not elimination.

What else is there to try? Alignment was done at Tesla and is in spec, tires are wearing evenly. No abnormal sounds so I don't think it's a wheel hub. I have noticed mild improvements with all the above things so my feeling is still that it is wheel/tire related but not sure what to do next.

Open to ideas. Thanks in advance.

Are you hungry?


I know when I'm hungry I get a consistent and persistent vibration in my belly no matter what tires I have on my car.


Just kidding lol.
Just need some levity every now and then.

 

[father_of_6]

Testing and straightening all wheels - Finally I decided the wheels must have been out of round from the factory (EVwheeldirect is now OOB but I am sure these are cheap cast alloys). I was actually in there when they did dismounted and tested. Two wheels were 35/1000" out of round, straightened to 20/1000. The remaining two were only 15/1000" out. So all wheels are now 15-20/1000" out of round which is within tolerance even for OEM wheels. This resulted in the most improvement to date, but not elimination

Just want to mention - when I had mine road force balanced, the guy showed me the before/after metrics and said that while all were better, there was still runout in one of the wheels. That road force balance didn't seem to make a bit of difference, the tires still had a rotational noise.

Only replacing the wheels did it for me. Reading your post, especially the "correcting out of round made the most improvement but did not eliminate" sounds similar to my experience.

I suspect what happens is... tire guys look at these numbers (the runout, or the out of roundness) and it looks "in spec" to them - but they come from the world of ICE, where engine noise covers up a bit of tire sound.

For an EV, these numbers really need to be much less tolerant. We need wheels that are perfectly in round if we want a quiet ride.

I suspect replacing your wheels will solve the issue, but it's not a cheap fix and undoubtedly you will end up in the same situation as soon as the new ones are out of round.

 

[Georgesb2]

Try deflating the tires to like 38 - 40psi.

I have a 22 Model 3P. I have vibrations on rough asphalt. The vibration transfers through the car and is bothersome. I run the tall wheeled tires 41-42 psi. They do "feel hard" to me. These performance tires don't have a lot of sidewall. Do you think there would be much change if I drop the pressure. At those low numbers the car will have the low tire pressure warning. But it might be worth trying.

 

[father_of_6]

Just a layman, but my take is that if the PSI is low enough for a warning, it's too low.

What are the consequences of having the pressure too low? Maybe you'll dent your rims, maybe the tires will slice easier from potholes, likely it will increase wear.

I wore a tire significantly down by driving at very low PSI from a slow leak.

Seems to me like a few PSI won't make a significant difference in the road feel. Again though, I'm a total layman and could be very wrong... although a few PSI doesn't make a huge difference on my Model 3.

I think you'd do well to put 18's on... but you might need to hunt for wheels that fit over those brakes. With 18's, your wheels and tires will be cheaper, your car more efficient, and you'll have more sidewall.

 

[ODWms]

I’ve mentioned on the site before that I’ve had good luck with longevity on my tires (average almost 50,000 miles). I wonder if at least some of it has to do with the fact I keep them inflated to around 50 psi. The Michelin PS4s seem to wear at the edges more than the middle. Even brand new, it’s clear the edges are seriously beveled. I’d imagine my higher inflation levels keep the edges slightly more off the ground than if they were less inflated. Pretty sure if I’d been running 40-42 psi all that time those edges would have worn a lot sooner.