Cost of Fuel Equivalent

[Tomek]

I am using my Tesla Signature more as a marketing tool for my company. People love the car and makes it easy to talk business. The company pays for the use of my car, insurance and repairs. The question was about the fuel.
I am using approx 1000 miles monthly, which increased my home electric bill by approx $90, the company also pays. Very rarely I am charging at public places. Since I am leaving in CT, the car is parked for the winter, which runs approx $20 a month in electric costs.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

This is the right way to measure if you have a meter. What are you results?

It's hopeless. He's provided some data from his meter a while back, but it was pretty useless, 1) because he runs a few other things off of it in the garage as I recall, 2) he charges/Supercharges elsewhere, 3) he has two Model 3s and it wasn't clear how many miles had been driven on the meter, and as far as I can guess, he's probably not willing to start a new experiment, where he reports data on miles driven and energy drawn from the meter (and only from the meter!) over that same period. It would be like drawing blood from a stone.

 

[StealthP3D]

It's hopeless. He's provided some data from his meter a while back, but it was pretty useless, 1) because he runs a few other things off of it in the garage as I recall, 2) he charges/Supercharges elsewhere, 3) he has two Model 3s and it wasn't clear how many miles had been driven on the meter, and as far as I can guess, he's probably not willing to start a new experiment, where he reports data on miles driven and energy drawn from the meter (and only from the meter!) over that same period. It would be like drawing blood from a stone.

I haven't Supercharged but less than $10-$12 worth since we got our first Model 3 in May 2018. But there is some 120V charging from time to time at our ski cabin. It's not that getting me to only charge in the carport would be like drawing blood from a stone (and I don't know where that negative attitude came from), it's just not practical for me to give up the charging at our ski cabin. So I can't provide super accurate figures but I can tell with certainty that charging is so cheap compared to gas it's not even worth tracking. And, yes, that's wall to wheels cheap. Because I'm basing it on where 98% of our LR RWD charges and about 80-90% of our P3D.

If it added up to more than a hill of beans I would be taking advantage of the Supercharger I drive by once or twice a week (because my P3D has free Supercharging that goes to waste due to the fact that charging is already so cheap). Gas has been artificially cheap recently due to the Saudi's pumping record amounts of oil during the latter half of 2018. But they can't keep doing that and fuel is already going up. Electricity is staying the same for the most part (thanks to continuous additions of wind and solar and the phasing out of expensive coal).

If people only knew how much it cost to preheat their gas SUV/truck in the winter, they would shint their pats. Or they wouldn't be worried about the little bit it takes to warm up an EV. The big question is, when more and more EV's displace gasoline cars, what's going to happen to the cost of gasoline when refineries are only running at 70-80% capacity? I think it will be a profit losing game to sell for lower profit margins in the hope that people will burn more so the price will likely go up.

 

[Daniel in SD]

If people only knew how much it cost to preheat their gas SUV/truck in the winter, they would shint their pats.

I would assume everyone who cares knows this when they compare their winter MPG to their summer MPG. That's the whole point of this thread, it's quite easy to measure MPG in a ICE car, in a Tesla it's much more difficult unless you have a dedicated meter.

The big question is, when more and more EV's displace gasoline cars, what's going to happen to the cost of gasoline when refineries are only running at 70-80% capacity? I think it will be a profit losing game to sell for lower profit margins in the hope that people will burn more so the price will likely go up.

Name any example of something like this happening. It defies all economic logic. The chance that gasoline will become a niche product in the foreseeable future is zero.

 

[jerry33]

I haven't Supercharged but less than $10-$12 worth since we got our first Model 3 in May 2018. But there is some 120V charging from time to time at our ski cabin. It's not that getting me to only charge in the carport would be like drawing blood from a stone (and I don't know where that negative attitude came from), it's just not practical for me to give up the charging at our ski cabin. So I can't provide super accurate figures but I can tell with certainty that charging is so cheap compared to gas it's not even worth tracking.

Correct. The additional electricity charge on the monthly bill for charging two BEVs is almost just a rounding error--and I have averaged 1,600 miles per month, plus 800 miles on Denise's car.

 

[jerry33]

Name any example of something like this happening. It defies all economic logic. The chance that gasoline will become a niche product in the foreseeable future is zero.

In 1890 most transportation was by horse. In1920 horses were mostly gone (I'm not actually sure of the exact date when most transportation switched from horse to car, could have been 1910, but 1920 is safe for sure).

 

[StealthP3D]

I would assume everyone who cares knows this when they compare their winter MPG to their summer MPG. That's the whole point of this thread, it's quite easy to measure MPG in a ICE car, in a Tesla it's much more difficult unless you have a dedicated meter.

A current/power meter on your charge station isn't expensive (some charge equipment come with them built in) and if it was important data, everyone with an EV would have their charging solution on a digital meter. It's actually more difficult to determine the per mile running costs of a gasoline car because there are oil and filter changes, air filters, and a lot more parts in general that wear out and break over time. It's not like spark plugs and alternator belts are warranty items.

Name any example of something like this happening. It defies all economic logic. The chance that gasoline will become a niche product in the foreseeable future is zero.

I suppose with a lack of foresight, the "foreseeable future" could be quite short indeed. It won't take long for gasoline demand to drop 20%! But actually, what will probably happen is the older refineries will be permanently shut down.

 

[Daniel in SD]

In 1890 most transportation was by horse. In1920 horses were mostly gone (I'm not actually sure of the exact date when most transportation switched from horse to car, could have been 1910, but 1920 is safe for sure).

According to wikipedia there were 20 million horses in the United States 1915. There are 9 million today. If gasoline consumption drops by half in a hundred years I don't think that will raise refining costs. I'm not sure the point of this analogy. Oil refineries produce an enormous number of products other than gasoline. Basic economic theory says that if gasoline demand goes down then the cost will go down. Thinking that reduced demand for gasoline will raise prices is a dangerous delusion. Regulatory changes are the only way to reduce the usage of gasoline.

 

[Silver Ghost]

We also need a thread about “routine maintenance” that ICE cars need. In my about 25K miles on my model 3. I have had nothing but tire rotations done so far. The first scheduled maintenance is at 100K for the cooling system

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

So I can't provide super accurate figures but I can tell with certainty that charging is so cheap compared to gas it's not even worth tracking.

Of course it is cheap; you are in the great PNW with unlimited renewable energy, which is nearly free. I would not ask you to inconvenience yourself for data - that’s up to you. The cost is low for you and clearly it also does not matter to you.

But, you have not provided hard data, while I have measured my use in the past. When providing a cost comparison to potential future EV buyers, I feel I am ethically required to provide my best estimate of the true costs those owners will see - so these numbers (which don’t matter to you), are important for me to quantify reasonably accurately. In San Diego, an unrealistically optimistic estimate could lead to an owner paying for an extra 500kWh per year (beyond their expectations) at a marginal rate of 50 cents/kWh, if they did not have a TOU plan. That’s not a lot, but some people may care, if they are coming from a Prius. I want people to make decisions based on the best data. There are many other advantages to electric vehicles which also have to be discussed with potential EV owners. It’s possible to present the entire picture fairly accurately, without bias.

It really is fine to not be interested, but if you don’t have hard data to discount the estimates (for the P3D+) I provided here, perhaps it is best to not comment so authoritatively.

 

[Daniel in SD]

We also need a thread about “routine maintenance” that ICE cars need. In my about 25K miles on my model 3. I have had nothing but tire rotations done so far. The first scheduled maintenance is at 100K for the cooling system

In theory yes. I don't know if you've ever been to a service center but the visual evidence would say otherwise!

 

[Silver Ghost]

The point of the P3D+ is to go fast and use of the autopilot. Rest of it (cheap fuel) is gravy. In Texas electric rates between 2-4 am is in the 3-5 cents/ kWh range.

 

[jerry33]

According to wikipedia there were 20 million horses in the United States 1915. There are 9 million today. If gasoline consumption drops by half in a hundred years I don't think that will raise refining costs. I'm not sure the point of this analogy. Oil refineries produce an enormous number of products other than gasoline. Basic economic theory says that if gasoline demand goes down then the cost will go down. Thinking that reduced demand for gasoline will raise prices is a dangerous delusion. Regulatory changes are the only way to reduce the usage of gasoline.

In 1915 there was a big breeding push for horses for the military (WWI), so the number is overstated for transportation, which is what I thought we were discussing. (Farm horses weren't replaced till after WWII).
In 1910 there were 92 M people.
in 2010 there were 308 million people.
The H/P ratio is pretty small today.
And yes, there are other uses for petroleum, although it seems as if hemp may cut into that somewhat. I don't believe petroleum will go away, but with luck tailpipe emissions will be reduced to almost nonexistent. Each gallon of gas or diesel burned creates from $12 to $17 in additional healthcare costs. If we can get rid of that, we will save a bundle.

 

[StealthP3D]

Of course it is cheap; you are in the great PNW with unlimited renewable energy, which is nearly free. I would not ask you to inconvenience yourself for data - that’s up to you.

Sigh...no, I pay very near the national average of $0.12 kWh. It's a little over $0.11 but credits from wind/solar and other adjustments bring it down to more like $0.105/kWh. We do not have unlimited renewable energy, at least not yet. Over 30% of my electricity comes from coal-fired power plants. Two big ones. They are both scheduled to be shut down, one in 4 years and the other in 7 years.

As I explained, it would not be practical for me stop charging at our ski cabin. So it's not a matter of "inconvenience", I would need to meter the charge outlet at our ski cabin and, even with that, it would only provide a combined average of our RWD and P3D Model 3's. I have a pretty good idea of how much it costs and you are barking up the wrong tree. If you were a hunting dog, I would have to retire you.

Where does this negative attitude come from?

 

[StealthP3D]

According to wikipedia there were 20 million horses in the United States 1915. There are 9 million today. If gasoline consumption drops by half in a hundred years I don't think that will raise refining costs.

Can you stay on subject? What is the point of citing 9 million horses when none of them replace cars? They are not used for transport, they are show horses and racing horses and pets.

 

[Daniel in SD]

In 1915 there was a big breeding push for horses for the military (WWI), so the number is overstated for transportation, which is what I thought we were discussing. (Farm horses weren't replaced till after WWII).
In 1910 there were 92 M people.
in 2010 there were 308 million people.
The H/P ratio is pretty small today.
And yes, there are other uses for petroleum, although it seems as if hemp may cut into that somewhat. I don't believe petroleum will go away, but with luck tailpipe emissions will be reduced to almost nonexistent. Each gallon of gas or diesel burned creates from $12 to $17 in additional healthcare costs. If we can get rid of that, we will save a bundle.

You're the one who brought up horses! haha.
I'm just saying that expecting reduced gasoline demand to increase the price of gasoline is nuts. The only way that could happen is if there was so little demand for petroleum products that there was no longer any economy of scale. I don't see that happening within the next 100 years.

 

[StealthP3D]

It's like the tag team from San Diego are the self-appointed "consumption Nazis".

I'm just happy to be powering my transport with 100% American electricity and not dirtying up the air in our neighborhoods and roadways and saving a lot of money at the same time. Not to mention having a car that is faster than a Corvette in the real world. It's all good but the "consumption Nazi's" want to try to make it look bad.

 

[StealthP3D]

I would assume everyone who cares knows this when they compare their winter MPG to their summer MPG.

I've had gas guzzlers before. And, no, nobody getting terrible efficiency wants to spend time calculating it all out. I had a friend with a big Blazer, modified, it got around 9 MPG. I asked him if that didn't bother him but he said he didn't care and didn't want to know what the numbers were, he just closed his eyes, so to speak, and filled it up religiously.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

Sigh...no, I pay very near the national average of $0.12 kWh. It's a little over $0.11 but credits from wind/solar and other adjustments bring it down to more like $0.105/kWh.

Sigh. I guess I should have said 10 cents per kWh, which I know, because the rest of my family lives up there. 70% of electricity from hydroelectric is pretty good, on balance, compared to the rest of the US.

https://www.ucsusa.org/sites/defaul...ner-Cars-from-Cradle-to-Grave-full-report.pdf

And I hate to break it to you, but 10 cents per kWh is REALLY cheap. To me, that is "nearly free". If I exceed my TOU plan usage limits in the summer time, I pay as much as 50 cents/kWh on peak, and 40 cents/kWh off peak (that would be for charging the Tesla!). If I use ANY energy between 2PM & 6PM on a (rare) RYU day (the very hottest days in summer, max of 16 allowed to be declared I think) I pay $1.44/kWh (I think that is the total ($1.16+$0.48 - (perhaps, depending on my use that month the credit goes away if I use more than ~450kWh/mo) $0.20) ; I haven't ever had to pay that rate, because I take steps to pre-cool the house on those days, and I do have some solar for other electricity needs (cannot use the AC) during those hours). In any case I read the tariff details as a $1.16/kWh RYU adder, so I assume it adds to the baseline rates.

If I'm under the 130% of baseline use for the month (usually the case for us since we have a small 4kW solar array), I do get that $0.20/kWh credit applied to every kWh, so the effective rates (see the table below) are ~$0.27/kWh peak and ~$0.17/kWh at night. That's why we have the plan.

There are other rate plans available which may be advantageous to me (the best provides ~$0.09/kWh at night for an additional monthly fee), but you can only change once per year and as of last year in July, I was not sure about the Tesla purchase, and I have free charging at work for the time being. So my wife wanted the reduced rates during the day (as compared to other TOU plans which are not so punitive on RYU days) which usually apply, because it allows us to run the AC more frequently in the summer (there are not very many RYU days).

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/regulatory/1-1-18 Schedule TOU-DR-P Total Rates Table.pdf

Just a little more explanation below, but note the rates in the following document are just the commodity costs and do not include transmission/distributions costs:

https://www.sdge.com/sites/default/files/elec_elec-scheds_eecc-tou-dr-p.pdf

 

[Daniel in SD]

It's like the tag team from San Diego are the self-appointed "consumption Nazis".

I'm just happy to be powering my transport with 100% American electricity and not dirtying up the air in our neighborhoods and roadways and saving a lot of money at the same time. Not to mention having a car that is faster than a Corvette in the real world. It's all good but the "consumption Nazi's" want to try to make it look bad.

Thank you. Check out my new signature!

I've had gas guzzlers before. And, no, nobody getting terrible efficiency wants to spend time calculating it all out. I had a friend with a big Blazer, modified, it got around 9 MPG. I asked him if that didn't bother him but he said he didn't care and didn't want to know what the numbers were, he just closed his eyes, so to speak, and filled it up religiously.

Some people care and some people don't. @AlanSubie4Life is the Adolf Hitler of consumption nazis. He records every tank of gas! I'm merely the Joseph Goebbels