Current Ads selling Model 3 Reservations...anyone else seen them?

[trm2]

So how is Tesla going to find out the real name/email address of any of these scalpers? And then match that information to what's in the M3 reservation?

In the real world of internet handles and anonymous email addresses, how is Tesla going to track these people down? Do you think they're going to have a team of people setting up sting operations to entrap a handful of M3 scalpers?

It already takes Tesla several weeks to months to deliver CPO cars already on their lots. They are woefully understaffed on the front lines.

And for argument sake, let's just say that Tesla successfully identifies some miscreant scalper only offering a reservation for sale. They haven't actually sold or transferred anything, so Tesla is going to cancel their reservation before they've actually done anything wrong or taken any money for the transfer?

Do you realize how incredibly easy it is to do this kind of matching? Especially when your customer list and reservation holder list fits on a spreadsheet?

 

[HankLloydRight]

Do you realize how incredibly easy it is to do this kind of matching? Especially when your customer list and reservation holder list fits on a spreadsheet?

Yes, and I do this kind of matching all the time. Considering that these ads could appear anywhere - TMC, Ebay, craigslist, etc, the online handles people use really could be anything.. only a small percentage of people use a handle that has any correlation to their real name or initials. So no, it's not that easy unless the person doing the selling is incredibly stupid and uses their real name or initials as their handle on these sites. I don't think Craigslist even displays a handle or username. It's entirely anonymous. Ebay is similar and people rarely use their real names or initials. How would Tesla match SuperStud69 to Tim Smith of Seattle, Washington? Even as best case scenario, I'd give them less than a 5% match success rate.

Also, 400,000 records is a pretty big spreadsheet.

 

[Trips]

How would Tesla match SuperStud69 to Tim Smith of Seattle, Washington? Even as best case scenario, I'd give them less than a 5% match success rate.

Also, 400,000 records is a pretty big spreadsheet.

First, 400,000 might seem big but really is a small spreadsheet. I an use to working with 210 million+ names and addresses and that is not that tough.

I would give them a 99.9% successful rate by using information other than an email or username if they wanted. Tesla already has most of our digital information from their website and would just have to ask ebay, craigslists... for the posters info. When a Tesla lawyer brings up the fact that this might involve the Economic Espionage Act I think that website will help out. Even if they covered their tracks really good you can take anonymous (Not logged in anywhere, no cookies...) visitors to their website and match it to an address, name and email address if they wanted.

I would also expect some direct conversation if someone is sending another person $50k+

On the other side if people sell car #1 of 2, Tesla will know after the fact. It would be very easy for them to cancel #2 as that would not be delivered for another year or two.

 

[ItsNotAboutTheMoney]

I'm posting this without any actual knowledge, as it probably varies state-by-state, but for new cars, doesn't Tesla still have to sign over the manufacturers title to the buyer? In order to do that, wouldn't Tesla need to know who the person is who is going to then register the car and pay the sales taxes (regardless if it's the reservation holder or not). If this is true, I don't think Tesla is going to hand you an un-assigned new car title.

It gives a reason for Tesla to have changed to using a titling agency in Texas.
By controlling the titling process, Tesla can control the name on the first Title.
If they do that, and pass information to the IRS it makes it much harder to scalp.

(If events promoters really cared about scalping, which they don't, they could easily reduce it just by tying the name at purchase and preventing resale. Just like airlines do.)

 

[rxlawdude]

swing and a miss!
purchasing vehicle new, can be separated from state registration & sales tax.
completing the purchase is without transfer,
registration and sales tax is an event between the purchaser
and the state the purchaser choice.

separate the two and all of the requirements are met legally.

And people are free to follow your advice. They would be not smart to, but free to.

I'll stick with the law as written clearly (and doing what's ethical). That's just me.

 

[rxlawdude]

First, 400,000 might seem big but really is a small spreadsheet. I an use to working with 210 million+ names and addresses and that is not that tough.

I work with 6M record data sets, but I'm not sure you would use Excel for 210+ records.

 

[adhoc]

And people are free to follow your advice. They would be not smart to, but free to.

I'll stick with the law as written clearly (and doing what's ethical). That's just me.

actually, some VERY smart people do follow this advice,
you do realize steve jobs never paid registration fees for his autos?

the law is clearly written, and it's written law not ethics,
which seems to be the basis of the push back regarding
an individual taking a risk via deposit on an unknown and
being told it's not ethical if same should benefit from such risk.

 

[rxlawdude]

actually, some VERY smart people do follow this advice,
you do realize steve jobs never paid registration fees for his autos?

the law is clearly written, and it's written law not ethics,
which seems to be the basis of the push back regarding
an individual taking a risk via deposit on an unknown and
being told it's not ethical if same should benefit from such risk.

Can't fix stupid.

 

[HankLloydRight]

First, 400,000 might seem big but really is a small spreadsheet. I an use to working with 210 million+ names and addresses and that is not that tough.

I would give them a 99.9% successful rate by using information other than an email or username if they wanted. Tesla already has most of our digital information from their website and would just have to ask ebay, craigslists... for the posters info. When a Tesla lawyer brings up the fact that this might involve the Economic Espionage Act I think that website will help out. Even if they covered their tracks really good you can take anonymous (Not logged in anywhere, no cookies...) visitors to their website and match it to an address, name and email address if they wanted.

I would also expect some direct conversation if someone is sending another person $50k+

On the other side if people sell car #1 of 2, Tesla will know after the fact. It would be very easy for them to cancel #2 as that would not be delivered for another year or two.

First of all, this is complete FUD. You really think Tesla is going to go to the trouble of invoking the EEA just to stop a few people from scalping cars they want to SELL??! You're really got to be kidding. Most websites I know would require a real subpoena before handing over private customer information like that just willy-nilly because Tesla "just asked". And Tesla is not going to spend the time, resources or money to invoke any lawyers to go to a judge to get a subpoena over this.

just have to ask ebay, craigslists... for the posters info.

All craigslist has is an email address, if that. It's trivial to get an anonymous email address from anywhere these days.

. Even if they covered their tracks really good you can take anonymous (Not logged in anywhere, no cookies...) visitors to their website and match it to an address, name and email address if they wanted.

Total BS. It's TRIVIAL to "cover your tracks". A 6th grader could do it. And it's just not that easy to get "name and email address" from an IP address, assuming it's traceable to that (which many times it's not). You'd need a court-ordered subpoena from the ISP to do that.

It's easy to hypothesize in theory what's possible, but as I've said many times in this thread, I'm not concerned about what's possible, I'm focused on what Tesla will actually (probably) do, IMHO. It's just not worth their time (or ours) to sit here and conjecture all the different ways they can catch the scalpers, because it will never, ever, come to that. They want to sell cars, not get some bad PR going after a miniscule number of people trying to profit on reservations.

 

[dsvick]

actually, some VERY smart people do follow this advice,
you do realize steve jobs never paid registration fees for his autos?

Steve Jobs leased his cars and got a new one every 6 months so that he didn't have to put plates on it. That loop hole in the CA law has since been closed.

 

[HankLloydRight]

First, 400,000 might seem big but really is a small spreadsheet. I an use to working with 210 million+ names and addresses and that is not that tough.

If you're manipulating 210million names in a spreadsheet, you're doing it wrong.

 

[trm2]

If you're manipulating 210million names in a spreadsheet, you're doing it wrong.

Agreed. Although that is still a small database, it has no place in a spreadsheet.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Yeah 210m records is nothing. But half a million records in a spreadsheet? Kinda unwieldy and not the right tool. But I've seen worse.

 

[rxlawdude]

Steve Jobs leased his cars and got a new one every 6 months so that he didn't have to put plates on it. That loop hole in the CA law has since been closed.

So you admit that Jobs was ethically wrong, so much so that a LAW was written to stop that kind of abuse. "Loophole" sugarcoats what it was: abuse of the system.

 

[Brando]

I like the part - $3,000 on ordering. Seems like a quick $3000 scam to me.

 

[daniel]

... It's just not worth their time (or ours) to sit here and conjecture all the different ways they can catch the scalpers, because it will never, ever, come to that. They want to sell cars, not get some bad PR going after a miniscule number of people trying to profit on reservations.

Tesla may not care, but the IRS will, if you try to claim the tax deduction on a car you buy with the intention of selling, or if someone tries to claim it on a car they bought from the original purchaser. Now, if the buyer doesn't care about the tax deduction and is willing to pay $15,000 more than retail for Tesla's version of a Corolla (i.e. their cheap car) a year sooner than if they ordered it from Tesla, then there's nothing to stop them.

Personally, I don't care. By the time I get my Model 3, they'll be building more of them every hour than the total number likely to be scalped between now and the time they catch up with demand.

 

[Canuck]

And people are free to follow your advice. They would be not smart to, but free to. I'll stick with the law as written clearly (and doing what's ethical). That's just me.

Agreed. My view on these things always comes back to taxes since this is how the court usually looks at it: It is legal and prudent to try to avoid taxes. It is illegal to evade them. The same applies to vehicle registration. If the law allows a grace period, fine, take advantage of it. But you'll never get away with it for long unless you really are Steve Jobs, and even then a temporary permit is required...

you do realize steve jobs never paid registration fees for his autos?

It turns out there's a provision in California regulations that give one six months to get license plates for a new car, and Jobs took advantage of it. Yes, he leased a silver Mercedes SL55 AMG, said Callas -- and every six months he traded it in for a new one.

"At no time would he ever be in a car as old as six months; and thus there was no legal requirement to have the number plates fitted," writes Heath.

"One might also assume that the leasing company was happy -- they had an endless supply of luxury cars to on-sell with the previous driver being none other than Steve Jobs."

Callas was on a plane home from Australia today, said his company, but a spokeswoman said she had often heard him tell the story of how Jobs changed cars to avoid having to put license plates on them. No word on whether he was concerned for his security; he was a very visible multimillionaire starting in his mid-twenties.

Jaime Garza of California's Department of Motor Vehicles confirmed that one can drive a new car for up to six months with only a temporary permit on a corner of the windshield in front. He pointed out regulation CVC 4456:

"A vehicle displaying a copy of the report of sale may be operated without license plates or registration card until ... [a] six-month period, commencing with the date of sale of the vehicle, has expired."

But if the state sends you your permanent metal license plates, said Garza, then you're obliged to put them on your car.

 

[HankLloydRight]

Tesla may not care, but the IRS will, if you try to claim the tax deduction on a car you buy with the intention of selling, or if someone tries to claim it on a car they bought from the original purchaser. Now, if the buyer doesn't care about the tax deduction and is willing to pay $15,000 more than retail for Tesla's version of a Corolla (i.e. their cheap car) a year sooner than if they ordered it from Tesla, then there's nothing to stop them.

Once the car is sold, what happens between the seller, buyer, and the IRS doesn't matter and is irrelevant to Tesla and stopping M3 scalpers.

 

[adhoc]

So you admit that Jobs was ethically wrong, so much so that a LAW was written to stop that kind of abuse. "Loophole" sugarcoats what it was: abuse of the system.

you are still confusing ethics with law?
that's the definition of stupid, doing the same thing
over and over expecting different results.

jobs followed the law, didn't pay registration,
state didn't like it changed the law,
ethics had nothing to do with it!
pretty stupid?

AAPL parks GoZillion $$$ offshore, congress tried
the ethics ploy with tim cook, asked him to testify.
after he calmly explained that his accountants were
following tax law written by congress, the persecution
stopped.

so please, remove ethics from legal debate, you'll fix
your view of the stupid part of the debate very quickly.
tesla manufactures and sell automobiles,
the state titles, registers & taxes same.
2 different entities, 2 different sets of laws.

 

[HankLloydRight]

tesla manufactures and sell automobiles,
the state titles, registers & taxes same.
2 different entities, 2 different sets of laws.

Unless, as I have postulated above, Tesla is required to sign over the manufactures title to the buyer. That's where the laws intersect. Now it's up to Tesla to decide who the "buyer" is (or isn't) and sign the title, but they still have to do that. I highly doubt Tesla is going to hand over an un-assigned new car title to you.