Current Ads selling Model 3 Reservations...anyone else seen them?

[HankLloydRight]

Apples and oranges. I hope Tesla reviews and cancels anyone's reservation where the reservation holder has advertised the spot in line for sale.

So how is Tesla going to find out the real name/email address of any of these scalpers? And then match that information to what's in the M3 reservation?

In the real world of internet handles and anonymous email addresses, how is Tesla going to track these people down? Do you think they're going to have a team of people setting up sting operations to entrap a handful of M3 scalpers?

It already takes Tesla several weeks to months to deliver CPO cars already on their lots. They are woefully understaffed on the front lines.

And for argument sake, let's just say that Tesla successfully identifies some miscreant scalper only offering a reservation for sale. They haven't actually sold or transferred anything, so Tesla is going to cancel their reservation before they've actually done anything wrong or taken any money for the transfer?

 

[adhoc]

Apples and oranges.

nice try, I'll go with apples to apples per the law.

socially engineering delivery is just plain ludicrous!
H3LL, it's painfully obvious here that even the delivery
rules are changed to whomever the factory deems next...

the big 3 do the same, get over it!

 

[rxlawdude]

So how is Tesla going to find out the real name/email address of any of these scalpers? And then match that information to what's in the M3 reservation?

In the real world of internet handles and anonymous email addresses, how is Tesla going to track these people down? Do you think they're going to have a team of people setting up sting operations to entrap a handful of M3 scalpers?

It already takes Tesla several weeks to months to deliver CPO cars already on their lots. They are woefully understaffed on the front lines.

And for argument sake, let's just say that Tesla successfully identifies some miscreant scalper only offering a reservation for sale. They haven't actually sold or transferred anything, so Tesla is going to cancel their reservation before they've actually done anything wrong or taken any money for the transfer?

I guess you haven't been spending much time on the official Tesla M3 boards. Guess how hard that one will be for Tesla to figure out?

What's most disturbing to me is the cavalier approach to ethics and following the quite clear terms of making that M3 reservation. Yes, in rare cases, circumstances may have changed requiring people with reservations to abandon their purchase. There is a remedy for them: They get their $1,000 refunded. But many here are fine rewarding those just in it for a buck, the contract terms be damned.

That's damn sad.

 

[HankLloydRight]

But many here are fine rewarding those just in it for a buck, the contract terms be damned.

For the record, I'm not fine with it, if that was your implication.

My entire point is that it's a very hard thing for Tesla to actually enforce (or want to enforce). I'm not saying what they should do, I'm saying what I think they will do. There's a big difference.

 

[zer0cool]

I don't see what the problem is. Some people want the car but don't want to wait, and are willing to spend money to get into better position. Some people would rather make some money and sell their places instead of getting the car sooner or at all. People value things differently and it's a free and open trade.

 

[rxlawdude]

I don't see what the problem is. Some people want the car but don't want to wait, and are willing to spend money to get into better position. Some people would rather make some money and sell their places instead of getting the car sooner or at all. People value things differently and it's a free and open trade.

"People value things differently and it's a free and open trade."

Um, no. When you put your deposit down you are agreeing to the terms and conditions that ONLY THE PERSON RESERVING can purchase the vehicle, and that reservations are not transferable.

You can slap lipstick on the pig of the argument above, but ethically and (at least technically) legally, encouraging such behavior is suboptimal.

However, since it's "free and open trade," you won't mind if Tesla (in their freedom) unilaterally cancels reservation holders that are blatantly selling in violation of the agreement they signed. Right?

 

[adhoc]

Um, no. When you put your deposit down you are agreeing to the terms and conditions that ONLY THE PERSON RESERVING can purchase the vehicle, and that reservations are not transferable.

uhmm, that's 2 different premises? which are you implying controls?

in several new auto purchases, I have handled my own paperwork & sales tax w/state.
is it not possible for a person, to make a reservation, not transfer said reservation,
purchase said reservation, yet register said reservation and pay taxes for said
reservation in a different name?

how far does a purchase involve the seller, once the manufacturer is paid?

 

[Jeff4155]

OK. I'm in!!!! Do you think he'll take cash? Maybe Krugerrands? Then all I need to do is wait for the phone call for delivery!!

When last have you purchased "Kruger Rands"? Good investment when I first purchased them back in 96

 

[ACA Man]

"People value things differently and it's a free and open trade."

Um, no. When you put your deposit down you are agreeing to the terms and conditions that ONLY THE PERSON RESERVING can purchase the vehicle, and that reservations are not transferable.

You can slap lipstick on the pig of the argument above, but ethically and (at least technically) legally, encouraging such behavior is suboptimal.

However, since it's "free and open trade," you won't mind if Tesla (in their freedom) unilaterally cancels reservation holders that are blatantly selling in violation of the agreement they signed. Right?

Agreed.

 

[rxlawdude]

uhmm, that's 2 different premises? which are you implying controls?

in several new auto purchases, I have handled my own paperwork & sales tax w/state.
is it not possible for a person, to make a reservation, not transfer said reservation,
purchase said reservation, yet register said reservation and pay taxes for said
reservation in a different name?

how far does a purchase involve the seller, once the manufacturer is paid?

First, the premise is that when you reserve, you agree to the terms and conditions, which prohibit transfer to another person. That answers your second (bolded above) question. The answer is, NO. You are certainly free to purchase under your reservation, pay taxes and register the vehicle. And you are certainly free to then sell it to another party, who will pay taxes and registration fees for the transfer.

How and when that process happens relative to "putting the vehicle into service" will determine who, if anyone at all, gets the federal tax credit.

 

[seattlite2004]

From a reddit post:
VIP selling one of their Model 3 reservations. Is this real? • r/teslamotors
TESLA MODEL 3 - ARRIVING THIS MONTH

 

[ACA Man]

First, the premise is that when you reserve, you agree to the terms and conditions, which prohibit transfer to another person. That answers your second (bolded above) question. The answer is, NO. You are certainly free to purchase under your reservation, pay taxes and register the vehicle. And you are certainly free to then sell it to another party, who will pay taxes and registration fees for the transfer.

How and when that process happens relative to "putting the vehicle into service" will determine who, if anyone at all, gets the federal tax credit.

My guess is the next buyer will have to pay the first buyer's cost (including registration & taxes) plus whatever profit the 1st buyer wants?

The next iffy issue is the federal ta credit.
What would IRS think when the car was sold immediately once taken possession by the first buyer?

The more important question is will Tesla allows this?
The last time I checked, a potential was allowed to pre-order for 2 cars and it is under that person's name.
Now, I am pretty sure they may not allow another person's name, unless a family member, to be switched.

Time will tell.

I wouldn't want to mess with the IRS, regardless.

 

[dsvick]

From a reddit post:
VIP selling one of their Model 3 reservations. Is this real? • r/teslamotors
TESLA MODEL 3 - ARRIVING THIS MONTH


View attachment 246301

This sounds perfectly legit.
Since they've already converted the reservation into an order, it sounds like they're selling the car once it's delivered not the reservation itself. And, since they aren't selling for profit, they are probably within the terms of the agreement prohibiting sale for profit. I guess they could apply for the tax credit and make $7,000 that they aren't supposed to be able to get.

 

[rxlawdude]

My guess is the next buyer will have to pay the first buyer's cost (including registration & taxes) plus whatever profit the 1st buyer wants?

The next iffy issue is the federal ta credit.
What would IRS think when the car was sold immediately once taken possession by the first buyer?
...
I wouldn't want to mess with the IRS, regardless.

Here's the thing. This guy, BEFORE taking possession, advertises it for sale. He will NOT (legally) be entitled to the tax credit because the vehicle was obtained for resale. The buyer from this guy is also NOT entitled to the tax credit if the car is titled to the original purchaser, then transferred to the buyer.

I certainly don't see Tesla permitting the buyer from the Reddit guy to become the "original" owner placing the vehicle in service, as required by the IRS for the refund.

 

[Runt8]

Here's the thing. This guy, BEFORE taking possession, advertises it for sale. He will NOT (legally) be entitled to the tax credit because the vehicle was obtained for resale. The buyer from this guy is also NOT entitled to the tax credit if the car is titled to the original purchaser, then transferred to the buyer.

I certainly don't see Tesla permitting the buyer from the Reddit guy to become the "original" owner placing the vehicle in service, as required by the IRS for the refund.

Nothing in the IRS forms says anything about "original owner":

• You are the owner of the vehicle. If the vehicle is leased, only the lessor and not the lessee, is entitled to the credit.
• You placed the vehicle in service during your tax year.
• The vehicle is manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways.
• The original use of the vehicle began with you.
  
• You acquired the vehicle for use or to lease to others, and not for resale.
• You use the vehicle primarily in the United States.

You can debate the terms "placed into service" and "original use" but it's not black and white like you make it sound. I would argue that the second buyer is eligible. I would also argue that my opinion doesn't mean much...

 

[ACA Man]

It is a gray area BUT would one like to explain to the IRS why he/she should be entitled to the credit?

Keep in mind that once you got audited, they will go back several years and thus would you be willing to take that risk?

 

[rxlawdude]

Nothing in the IRS forms says anything about "original owner":

• You are the owner of the vehicle. If the vehicle is leased, only the lessor and not the lessee, is entitled to the credit.
• You placed the vehicle in service during your tax year.
• The vehicle is manufactured primarily for use on public streets, roads, and highways.
• The original use of the vehicle began with you.
  
• You acquired the vehicle for use or to lease to others, and not for resale.
• You use the vehicle primarily in the United States.

You can debate the terms "placed into service" and "original use" but it's not black and white like you make it sound. I would argue that the second buyer is eligible. I would also argue that my opinion doesn't mean much...

You can argue that, but I promise you that's a losing argument.

 

[HankLloydRight]

You can argue that, but I promise you that's a losing argument.

Yeah, it's pretty hard to argue "The original use of the vehicle began with you" is applicable to the second titled owner.

 

[adhoc]

You are certainly free to purchase under your reservation, pay taxes and register the vehicle.

swing and a miss!
purchasing vehicle new, can be separated from state registration & sales tax.
completing the purchase is without transfer,
registration and sales tax is an event between the purchaser
and the state the purchaser choice.

separate the two and all of the requirements are met legally.

 

[HankLloydRight]

purchasing vehicle new, can be separated from state registration & sales tax.
completing the purchase is without transfer,
registration and sales tax is an event between the purchaser
and the state the purchaser choice.

I'm posting this without any actual knowledge, as it probably varies state-by-state, but for new cars, doesn't Tesla still have to sign over the manufacturers title to the buyer? In order to do that, wouldn't Tesla need to know who the person is who is going to then register the car and pay the sales taxes (regardless if it's the reservation holder or not). If this is true, I don't think Tesla is going to hand you an un-assigned new car title.