Daniel's EVPorsche 911 conversion

[JRP3]

I could demand some money back. I do feel that I deserve that. I never would have agreed to allow him to learn on my car. But there is such a thing as trying to squeeze blood from a stone. And he's saying that my efficiency will improve as the motor and batteries break in.

If the efficiency does not improve the way he claims, and I doubt it will improve enough to get close to your expected range, and nothing will make your expected acceleration happen at that voltage and amperage, then he should be quite willing to refund some cash. You gave him the money so he should have it to give back. What is really troubling is there could be no way to get the promised acceleration from 144 volts compared to the promised 225 volts. There should have been a discount right there.

It is correct that my car still has power steering and A/C. These things make it much more enjoyable to drive and I would not want to sacrifice them for range.

As has been mentioned there is no need to do without them but they can be implemented, quite easily, in a more efficient manner, especially the power steering. If you are interested I can do some investigating in the EV community to see if there is anyone in the area who could take a look at it and maybe help you out. Lots of experienced EV'ers on the west coast who would love to poke around your vehicle.

BTW, he explained to me about the volt meter. It reads in the vicinity of 13 volts and I had thought it was reading the output of the dc/dc down-converter that provides 12-volt power for the car's electrical system. It turns out that it actually is reading across 4 cells, and on the assumption that all the cells are balanced by the BMS, all I have to do is multiply by 12 to get the pack voltage or divide by 4 to get the cell voltage. So now I will know my pack voltage, as an additional way to assess pack condition.

That is a weird way to do it when a simple volt meter wired to the most negative and most positive terminals on the pack would give you true pack voltage. I can't imagine why he would wire it that way. Isolating the voltage of 4 individual cells gives you no informational benefit over reading full pack voltage.

 

[WarpedOne]

As has been mentioned there is no need to do without them but they can be implemented, quite easily, in a more efficient manner, especially the power steering.

And it would also be better than existing solution that only works when car is actually moving.
Electric power steering and electric A/C would work even when the car is not moving.
What are estimated costs of these things?

 

[TEG]

There is a lingering concern of the BMS and the Li-Ion batteries.
It is certainly possible to do this wrong with the result being premature battery degradation and failures. Given what is reported as a lack of experience with this newer technology, I am crossing my fingers that they got it right and you don't end up having battery problems in a year or two.

Not trying to scare you, but I think it is a valid concern and possibly worth inquiring more about the track record of the particular BMS with the particular batteries in your car.

 

[JRP3]

And it would also be better than existing solution that only works when car is actually moving.
Electric power steering and electric A/C would work even when the car is not moving.
What are estimated costs of these things?

You might find a salvage MR2 pump for really cheap, I think new or rebuilds are around $150. Should be a fairly easy replacement. I don't know if I'd bother with changing the AC though, I assume it's on a clutch that only engages when it's on so it's probably not using much energy most of the time.

 

[JRP3]

Not trying to scare you, but I think it is a valid concern and possibly worth inquiring more about the track record of the particular BMS with the particular batteries in your car.

Especially since you aren't getting the range you wanted and may push the pack lower more often. There are many different ways to do a BMS and some are more active than others. It seems as if most lithium cells stay balanced if properly balanced when charging unless they are subjected to a lot of high amperage discharges, i.e. hard acceleration. A good BMS will also cut back on the throttle on a low cell signal or at least give a warning.

 

[JRP3]

Some potential good news for a future upgrade, you could have a Zilla 1000amp High Voltage controller swapped in and get the pack rewired from 144 to 288 and get the performance you were promised :biggrin:

The Zilla will return later this year.

My production crew has been busy finishing up the last orders that I accepted in September. Meanwhile my engineer Arthur and I are finishing the design changes needed for effective higher volume production. The automated test equipment that Arthur built will support volume production and has already increased the quality of Zillas going out the door. The improved Hairball code I've been working on ran today for the first time in my 914 and promises to increase reliability as well as make diagnostics easier.

I am in talks with a very qualified licensee, and although we have not signed any formal agreements yet, we seem to be finding common purpose and I expect things to be well established soon.

I apologize for the delay. My less than ideal health and my possibly unreasonable requirement for quality has not been conducive to moving faster on this path, but it is encouraging to see the transition coming to fruition.

The waiting list on our website continues to grow and I hope the new manufacturer will be contacting those of you on it soon.

Thank you all for your patience, -Otmar-
Cafe Electric llc
The Zilla factory.

EVDL Archive / Forum Interface - Electric Vehicle Discussion List

 

[TEG]

Yeah! It was sad to see Otmar have to walk away from Zilla production due to health concerns, but now the situation is improving!

 

[daniel]

I had a long conversation yesterday with the president of the EV car club in Post Falls, ID (about 15 miles from here, an easy trip for my car). He actually lives farther and it would be a stretch to get there and back, but he has a 220 volt 50 amp plug-in so I could charge up there. He and others in the club have built EVs.

First of all, talking to him was a breath of fresh air, because instead of telling me how upset I should be with the builder or how I should demand satisfaction because the car fell short of promised performance, he said "Of course it won't go as far or as fast as promised. They never do!" He had nothing negative to say about what the car won't do, only positive stuff to say about what the car will do, and what it is. He said "It's a great car. It's the coolest car in these two counties, and you're going to have fun driving it."

He also raised some of the positive suggestions from this thread, possible ways to improve the car. I may have him assess the practicality of changing over the power steering and/or the controller. He also talked about an improved BMS the club is working on. I suspect that adding batteries is probably out of the question, because there's just no more room, but he'll give me his opinion on that when he sees it.

So it's good to be in contact with the local EV folks.

I think I might do a 55-mph freeway drive today, to assess energy consumption at that speed. If I like the numbers, I may try Coeur d'Alene on Sunday. That will be the acid test for this car.

 

[mnx]

I had a long conversation yesterday with the president of the EV car club in Post Falls, ID (about 15 miles from here, an easy trip for my car). He actually lives farther and it would be a stretch to get there and back, but he has a 220 volt 50 amp plug-in so I could charge up there. He and others in the club have built EVs.

First of all, talking to him was a breath of fresh air, because instead of telling me how upset I should be with the builder or how I should demand satisfaction because the car fell short of promised performance, he said "Of course it won't go as far or as fast as promised. They never do!" He had nothing negative to say about what the car won't do, only positive stuff to say about what the car will do, and what it is. He said "It's a great car. It's the coolest car in these two counties, and you're going to have fun driving it."

He also raised some of the positive suggestions from this thread, possible ways to improve the car. I may have him assess the practicality of changing over the power steering and/or the controller. He also talked about an improved BMS the club is working on. I suspect that adding batteries is probably out of the question, because there's just no more room, but he'll give me his opinion on that when he sees it.

So it's good to be in contact with the local EV folks.

I think I might do a 55-mph freeway drive today, to assess energy consumption at that speed. If I like the numbers, I may try Coeur d'Alene on Sunday. That will be the acid test for this car.

Awesome Daniel, that's great news. I would love to have an EV of any type, the closest thing I have right now is a cordless electric lawn mower.

 

[JRP3]

I had a long conversation yesterday with the president of the EV car club in Post Falls, ID (about 15 miles from here, an easy trip for my car). He actually lives farther and it would be a stretch to get there and back, but he has a 220 volt 50 amp plug-in so I could charge up there. He and others in the club have built EVs.

That's great, you really need some local knowledge to check out the vehicle so you can at least be sure there isn't something that was done wrong that might be hurting your performance.

First of all, talking to him was a breath of fresh air, because instead of telling me how upset I should be with the builder or how I should demand satisfaction because the car fell short of promised performance, he said "Of course it won't go as far or as fast as promised. They never do!"

That's exactly the type of attitude that has plagued EV's for years, that they always under deliver. Personally I just don't think that should be the norm, Tesla certainly doesn't take that attitude, and there is no reason a competent converter can't deliver a vehicle to spec. If he couldn't meet your specs he should have published accurate specs or be willing to refund some money when it fell short, it shouldn't even be an issue.

He had nothing negative to say about what the car won't do, only positive stuff to say about what the car will do, and what it is. He said "It's a great car. It's the coolest car in these two counties, and you're going to have fun driving it."

I'm sure it is a great car, but as you pointed out from the beginning it's not what your ordered, expected, or paid for.
I don't know the weight or battery capacity of your vehicle, but here is a conversion with a 28.8kwh pack claiming 137 mile range Electric vehicle reaches 137 miles - Elite Power Solutions This is not to say that your vehicle can do that but to show that your desired range is achievable in a conversion.
I hope the local EV'ers can help you get the vehicle closer to what you originally expected, because that's what you deserve. We need more EV's that do what they are supposed to.

 

[daniel]

That's exactly the type of attitude that has plagued EV's for years, that they always under deliver. Personally I just don't think that should be the norm [...] it shouldn't even be an issue.

I agree. But what is, is. "If should's and but's were beers and nuts, we'd have a hell of a party." We're agreed on what "should" be. But I have to decide whether to give myself ulcers moaning and complaining about what my car won't do, and how far short it falls from what I was promised, or accept the disappointment, and enjoy what it does do, and be happy that he didn't steal my car outright and sell it on the black market and skip the country, as I was beginning to think he had done as the months dragged on.

Oh, and I thought I had mentioned, that my pack is 200 ah, 28 kWh. It consists of 96 LiFePO4 cells, each cell in parallel with another, and the pairs in series for 144 volts nominal.

I don't know the weight or battery capacity of your vehicle, but here is a conversion with a 28.8kwh pack claiming 137 mile range Electric vehicle reaches 137 miles - Elite Power Solutions

The car drove from Flagstaff, elevation 7,000 feet, to Phoenix, elevation 1,100 feet; a distance of 137 miles. Would it have made it back?

The car is probably a lot more efficient than mine, as it was probably engineered, where as mine was assembled from available components. But if they were honest they'd run a test on level ground. -- And the article does not say what it cost to build the car, or whether anyone is offering it or cars like it for sale. Elite Power Solutions just sells components.

Tesla, of course, is the gold standard of EVs right now. But I keep reading owner reports that they're not getting the 245 miles that was published. Heck, my Toyota Prius does not get the EPA mileage, though people who drive them skillfully, under good conditions, can exceed those figures.

I think Paul should refund me half of what I paid him. But he's not going to do that. And if I work with him, he'll help the local guys work through the issues, but if I make a stink he won't want to help, and all I'll get are ulcers. I think Paul acted in good faith, and though I would not have chosen to be his learning project, I think what he's learned will help him do better next time, and that's to the benefit of the cause of electric transportation. Sometimes having fun is more important than demanding "justice," which is usually subjective anyway. Paul is committed to electric transportation and has been converting Porsches for a long time (probably all lead batteries until now). He's on our side. He's not the enemy. I'll save my anger for GM, not Paul.

The battery guy has suggested some driving ideas, and I'll post results later.

 

[WarpedOne]

Sometimes having fun is more important than demanding "justice," which is usually subjective anyway. Paul is committed to electric transportation and has been converting Porsches for a long time (probably all lead batteries until now). He's on our side. He's not the enemy. I'll save my anger for GM, not Paul.

Word!

Tesla, of course, is the gold standard of EVs right now. But I keep reading owner reports that they're not getting the 245 miles that was published.

Let's put that FAQ of ours to some use: Range

 

[dpeilow]

Are those range figures up to date?

Also, don't forget this: Tesla's Roadster rolls 241 miles on single charge, annoys petrol pumps

 

[WarpedOne]

Are those range figures up to date?

Quote from Official Roadster FAQ:

How far can the Tesla Roadster drive between charges?
Actual range depends on driving style and conditions. During testing of prototypes cars, Tesla Motors has seen between 170 miles per charge for very spirited driving to 267 miles per charge for city driving that makes use of the Roadster's regenerative braking. Our most recent EPA driving cycle tests, conducted February 2008, at an EPA-certified facility, resulted in the following numbers:

• 231 mi EPA city
• 224 mi EPA highway
• 227 mi EPA combined (city/highway)

Keep in mind that Tesla Motors is in the midst of final development and testing for the Tesla Roadster. While we are confident in our most recent numbers, the final results will be dependent on the car's specifications at series production. We will update our EPA range numbers once we have fully tested a production Roadster, expected in early 2008.

 

[JRP3]

be happy that he didn't steal my car outright and sell it on the black market and skip the country, as I was beginning to think he had done as the months dragged on.

I wish I had customers who were satisfied with the fact that I didn't steal their vehicles :wink:

The car is probably a lot more efficient than mine, as it was probably engineered, where as mine was assembled from available components.

It is more efficient, but it is still a conversion assembled from available components, just like yours.

I think Paul should refund me half of what I paid him. But he's not going to do that. And if I work with him, he'll help the local guys work through the issues, but if I make a stink he won't want to help, and all I'll get are ulcers.

I don't think you need to get involved in a big battle, just voice your concerns and thoughts to Paul and see what he is willing to do. Getting back half your money obviously isn't going to happen but getting some back and getting whatever help he can provide to improve the vehicle seems quite reasonable. It can't hurt to ask, and quite honestly even if he refuses to help in the future I highly doubt there is anything special in that conversion that the average EV converter can't figure out. One of the great things about EV conversions is they are pretty simple.

I think Paul acted in good faith

Even more reason to expect him to make this right. Personally I can't imagine delivering a product so far from spec and not expecting to do something to make up the difference. It's really in his best interest, as anyone reading this thread will see how he handles this, and if someone on one of the many EV forums I read asks about a conversion from Paul I'd be hesitant to recommend him, to say the least. The EV community is fairly small still, word can spread quickly. Over the last couple of years I've posted about his business on various sites saying that his conversions looked interesting. You're the first person I've seen with first hand experience with them and so far it hasn't gone the way I would expect. I'm still waiting to see how he handles this before making a final judgment. Things often don't go as planned, it's how a business handles the problems that makes or breaks them. Logisystems has been having reoccurring problems with their controllers, and they keep taking them back and fixing them, until they get it right. Making you a happier customer will ultimately help Paul's business. Failing to do so will turn off a lot of people.

 

[daniel]

I wish I had customers who were satisfied with the fact that I didn't steal their vehicles :wink:

I am not satisfied. I'm just resigned. Doing my best to look on the bright side, I find 3 points:

1. He didn't steal my car.
2. It's a nice car, even though it's a disappointment.
3. It's better than being poked in the eye with a sharp stick. (I.e. an awful lot of people are dying of starvation, war, and disease. Compared to such physical ailments, an under-performing car is an insignificant problem.)

I don't think you need to get involved in a big battle, just voice your concerns and thoughts to Paul and see what he is willing to do.

I have done so, and will continue to do so. But I won't send the car back to him. Maybe he could fix the issues. But if I have to be without the car for another year, it's not worth it.

Personally I can't imagine delivering a product so far from spec and not expecting to do something to make up the difference.

This is where I'm disappointed in Paul so far.

The president of the nearby EV car club (whose name is Gordy) has made some suggestions. He thinks the Curtis controller is inadequate. He recommends Zilla or Raptor. Paul says the Curtis is the most reliable, after the one he was originally planning to use proved defective (two failures out of five controllers). He thinks this accounts for the lack of acceleration and the pulsing hesitation when I try to accelerate hard, and he thinks it might also account for the poor efficiency.

Gordy also thinks the LiFePO4 batteries may be limiting my power, since the voltage drops very low under a heavy load. This is something I see also in my Xebra, which has similar batteries. If, as I now suspect, Paul had not used these batteries before, he would not have known there'd be a problem.

I'd be willing to spring for a better controller. But my concern is that this battery pack might not be able to provide enough current for it.

Daniel

 

[graham]

Tesla, of course, is the gold standard of EVs right now. But I keep reading owner reports that they're not getting the 245 miles that was published. Heck, my Toyota Prius does not get the EPA mileage, though people who drive them skillfully, under good conditions, can exceed those figures.

There are so many caveats and addendums to those figures for the Roadster, it isn't funny. In my opinion Tesla should give a number that looks something like 180 mile range. That would be Standard Mode, 65mph, new batteries, driving semi-conservatively, not many hills.

If you drive more typical Bay Area: 75mph, fast acceleration, lots of hills etc that number will start to get closer to 150.

Edit to add: Although typical Bay Area rush hour is: lots of stop and go, never more than 25 mph, always behind a big truck -- with that, who knows? 350 miles? :smile:

 

[JRP3]

I have done so, and will continue to do so. But I won't send the car back to him. Maybe he could fix the issues. But if I have to be without the car for another year, it's not worth it.

I never meant for you to let Paul work on the car, I just mean see what he will do as far as refunding some of your money, at least in the amount necessary to bring the car to spec.

Gordy also thinks the LiFePO4 batteries may be limiting my power, since the voltage drops very low under a heavy load. This is something I see also in my Xebra, which has similar batteries. If, as I now suspect, Paul had not used these batteries before, he would not have known there'd be a problem.

I'd be willing to spring for a better controller. But my concern is that this battery pack might not be able to provide enough current for it.

Daniel

Certainly the controller is holding you back, but if you got a higher voltage controller, such as the Zilla, you could rewire the same batteries for 288 volts, set the Zilla to send a max of 192 volts to the motor, and even if your batteries are limiting you now they won't with that setup. Even if your voltage sags from 288 it's so far above the motor max it will keep the power high. A Zilla 1K HV will wake that motor up!
However, I doubt the batteries are the problem. I assume they are at least Thundersky 100ah prismatics, which can give a 3C discharge with a 10C max burst. 3C is 300 amps and 10C is 1000 amps. If you could tell us the brand of the battery I can confirm those figures.

 

[daniel]

I'm going to be looking into all of that. Meanwhile...

The main reason I was dissatisfied with my little Zap Xebra was that I could not go to Coeur d'Alene and back in it. It's a 50-mile round trip, and the Xebra with its LiFePO4 battery pack can only go 40 miles to dead empty, or 32 miles to 80% DoD. Other than that, the Xebra was adequate for all my in-town driving.

Today I drove the Porsche to Coeur d'Alene and back. I drove as close to 55 mph as I could hold it on the way there, but I was doing so well at that point that I drove between 55 and 60 mph on the return. With a very slight detour to stop at the grocery store on the way home, I drove 49 miles, averaging 346 wh/mi, and arriving home at 61% DoD, well within safe limits.

 

[EVnut]

What magic new mojo ya got goin' on in there? These numbers seem quite "adequate." I think it is time to celebrate. Who'd got the bubbly?