CyberDutchie
Active Member
You must have accidentally (or conveniently?) missed Eberhard's post, here, let me quote it for you:
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You must have accidentally (or conveniently?) missed Eberhard's post, here, let me quote it for you:
The "clear sign of degradation" in our roadster is about 6% in 4 years and 50,000 km. In fact it's been stable at that level for over a year, which I agree is not linear. But it doesn't represent a problem either.
Drat, I promised myself I wouldn't reply any more.
CyberDutchie
Active Member
Selective reading ... read the whole post, how many people put 142.000 km on in 2,5 years? Most people don't even put that much on the car in 7 years, so there goes your argument.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Please lock this thread. I mistook this guy for a non-troll for quite some time. I'm sure he knows the whole truth, since the way he's plucking out loose bits of information and spinning it in the most negative way implies that he has actually been through much of the data. And no-one could be dumb enough to through that much data and not understand its implication, right? Hence a classic troll who gets a kick from annoying and provoking.
Wow… way to go with not using your brain. For someone that made such a definitive statement, you're looking for Tesla charge and discharge rates now? Do you not know the shape of the capacity loss curve? The capacity loss rate is highest at first and then has a gentle slope. Then, you again ignore the factor of distance and focus on calendar time instead.
140,000 km in 2.5 years = 12.5%
50,000km in 4 years = 6% (at this rate, the battery likely to have significant capacity at 16 years)
This is merely two data points but nicely shows how battery life is a factor of distance as it relates to charge/discharge cycles. Of course Tesla doesn't use 100% DoD. It also has active thermal management and won't charge if it is too cold or too hot.
See this paper: Development of High Power and Long Life Lithium Secondary Batteries
The abstract in PDF is available online. They use the same kind of chemistry for the Model S's battery - Li(Ni,Co,Al)O2 and the authors work for Panasonic Corporation. Notice the charge cycle count where they are testing at 2C charge and discharge (far higher levels than usually reported in data sheets) and at 25 and 50 degrees C. Capacity loss out to 3,000 cycles was less than 20%. Tesla's discharge upwards to somewhere around 4C, but charge at only around 1C at a supercharger. Usually, high current charging is more damaging than high current discharging.
Even if you don't believe 3,000 cycles, a mere 1,500 cycles would account for 270,000 miles or 435,000 km. The cost savings from energy at over 400,000 km will more than pay for the cost of the entire battery, even at today's prices. Over time, it is likely that the price of the same batteries will drop while the price of gasoline is likely to remain, at best, where it is now.
You were so definitive and so wrong about battery swapping. You are also definitive and so wrong about battery life.
I agree. Anyone who reads the thread will come to the same conclusion, the guy is an obvious troll and should be kicked.
Johan
Ex got M3 in the divorce, waiting for EU Model Y!
Based on testing, Tesla expects the battery to retain approximately 70% of its initial capacity after seven years or 100,000 miles (160,000 km).
Battery degradation, replacement cost $22.5k. Roadster owners please speak up. - Page 3
And techmaven: I guess the guys at Toyota are idiots since they are also using Panasonic cells at much narrower charging Levels.
Battery degradation, replacement cost $22.5k. Roadster owners please speak up. - Page 3
And techmaven: I guess the guys at Toyota are idiots since they are also using Panasonic cells at much narrower charging Levels.
deonb
Active Member
That's pointing to information that has since been removed.
However... just comparing your arguments against each other:
So your definition of "useless in 7 years" is that it has 70% of it's capacity left? So you're saying that my 85kWh battery is going to become a 60kWh battery after 7 years.
Yeah, that sounds utterly useless. A Model S with a 60kWh battery?? Worthless. If that was possible, Tesla would have just sold ... oh wait.
NigelM
Recovering Member
kevin99
Member
This Realist guy busy putting out bs here rather than covering his short position? I can tolerate whatever he says as along as I am taking money away from him...
Man, Tesla just shows the heck of strength the last few days that surprises such a big bull of me.
I reiterate my all: this is the stock of decade.
And search my secret master plan post on the forum.
Ride with me!
Man, Tesla just shows the heck of strength the last few days that surprises such a big bull of me.
I reiterate my all: this is the stock of decade.
And search my secret master plan post on the forum.
Ride with me!
JRP3
Hyperactive Member
Unrealist, you're simply out of your league here. You might be able to peddle your nonsense on some other stock discussion board, but all of us here know much more about Tesla and their technology than you do because we've spent much more time studying it and dissecting it than you have, obviously. You might as well stop by the Tesla factory and try to tell them what's wrong with their product, you'd have about as much luck with that. Give it up, move on to a less educated audience, or do some actual research and raise your game to a respectable level.
Sadly, I'm sure there's any number of forums that Realist can spout such crap and be taken seriously. I'm sure he has or will. Here, he's way, way out of his league. But there are plenty of people who are so hell bent against real progress, that they'll eat his crap up.
In some ways, it bothers me. But if it results in more shorts, I'll take the money to compensate.
There is a lot of resistance against the Model S and EV's in general in Germany. With its big car manufacturers leaning completely on ICE's (despite of the half-hearted attempts from Audi and BMW to develop cars with electric propulsion) the German car industry sees the danger that lies in an EV like the Model S that has hardly any objections anymore: beautiful, superb handling, comfort, long range (and with supercharging indefinite range). So they fight it.
That's why the German chancellor Angela Merkel, despite here lip service to the EV-cause by saying there should be a million EV's on the road in Germany in 2020, doesn't actually do anything to stimulate them. It's the ICE-car lobby that stops her. The German roofs are full of solar panels because this was stimulated by the government. Why? Not just for the environment, but because the German solar industry profits from it. With EV's the German car industry at the moment has nothing to gain, only to lose. And that's why Germany and other car producing countries like Italy are dragging their feet, whereas countries without car industries like Norway and The Netherlands are popularizing the EV.
Wouldn't surprise me if 'Realist' is working for one of the big German carmakers and is just trolling because he realizes what a huge competitor the Model S is for the products of his lazy employer.
That's why the German chancellor Angela Merkel, despite here lip service to the EV-cause by saying there should be a million EV's on the road in Germany in 2020, doesn't actually do anything to stimulate them. It's the ICE-car lobby that stops her. The German roofs are full of solar panels because this was stimulated by the government. Why? Not just for the environment, but because the German solar industry profits from it. With EV's the German car industry at the moment has nothing to gain, only to lose. And that's why Germany and other car producing countries like Italy are dragging their feet, whereas countries without car industries like Norway and The Netherlands are popularizing the EV.
Wouldn't surprise me if 'Realist' is working for one of the big German carmakers and is just trolling because he realizes what a huge competitor the Model S is for the products of his lazy employer.
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