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Devils advocating...from someone who shorted TSLA

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Please allow me to add two more data points:

• I visited the Tesla factory last week. A digital sign inside read... Cars Produced Last Week: 544 Today's Goal: 100

• 1 in 4 people who take a test drive at a Tesla Store are placing an order for a Model S. That's an extraordinary conversion rate.
 
There are no tax incentives worth mentioning in the EU. Why? Well obviously because EU car manufacturers have no volume production capabilities for electric cars yet and therefore have not lobbied for tax incentives. So, BMW electric cars could actually benefit Tesla sales in the EU if incentives are to follow...

Sorry, don't believe the troll. There are significant incentives in some EU countries. For instance Denmark does not assess the 180%(! -- this is NOT a typo!) tax on electric cars that all other cars have to pay.

If you want to do go through the list of incentives per country check the list here: http://www.teslamotors.com/incentives/DK/
 
Can I get some scientific articles about the carbon footprint comment? I would be interested in actual metrics and beliefs of the CO2 costs of the supercharger in comparison to a truck. I am 100 percent serious. Does anyone have comparison well to road of an electric car to a ICE? It would be nice if we had an archived article we can reference with 20 different independent articles by reputable institutions about this subject. So we can just copy the link to people for their own knowledge.

Unfortunately, the literature that I've seen is too old and unreliable to be used in the manner that people are likely to want it used. There have been a number of published estimates on lithium ion battery production, even several specifically on EVs. However, the nature of what those studies try to accomplish is general in nature and difficult to then apply to the specific case of Tesla and it's supplier. Commonly, Tesla critics reference two studies:

Argonne National Laboratory. A Review of Battery Life-Cycle Analysis: State of Knowledge and Critical Needs http://www.transportation.anl.gov/pdfs/B/644.PDF

Hawkins, T. R., B. Singh, G. Majeau-Bettez, and A. H. Strømman. 2012. Comparative environmental life cycle assessment of conventional and electric vehicles. Journal of Industrial Ecology
Comparative Environmental Life Cycle Assessment of Conventional and Electric Vehicles - Hawkins - 2012 - Journal of Industrial Ecology - Wiley Online Library

Both have fatal flaws, as with any study, when used incorrectly. As one reads these two papers and try to tease out exactly what base assumptions they use and where they get their underlying data, it becomes very clear that these two papers (as with any paper of this kind) would have to make gross generalizations based on far outdated data.

For example, the Hawkins paper models the EV power train using a ABB ACS HXR355 motor: ABB IE2 High Efficiency Cast Iron Motors - Process Performance Motors (IEC Low Voltage AC Motors)

Does that look like a Tesla Model S motor to you? They grabbed the environmental impact numbers from the 250kW version which only weighs 468 kg, or 1031 pounds. No wonder I'm looking at the chart on page 57 wondering how in the world they got the motor/engine values the put there. The other power train value is even worse - how they managed to get such an impact level on the inverter, charge controller, and motor controller is beyond me. Their paper is very vague about this part. But certainly, they are using industrial components for stationary applications and maybe they even added two motors together to get such high values.

The Hawkins paper uses the following paper for battery life cycle impact: Life Cycle Environmental Assessment of Lithium-Ion and Nickel Metal Hydride Batteries for Plug-In Hybrid and Battery Electric VehiclesMajeau-bettez, Guillaume ; Hawkins, Troy R. ; Strømman, Anders Hammer Environmental Science & Technology, 2011, Vol.45(12), pp.5454-5454

This one is behind a paywall - or get it through a library. In any case, this study looks at LFP and NCM lithium ion batteries - neither of which is used in the Model S. The total energy density was 112 and 88 Wh/kg, way off from the over 250 Wh/kg for NCR18650A (which is closer to the Model S chemistry). Interestingly enough, the study mentions that they are expecting 3,000 cycles for NCM and 6,000 for LFP. That's a lot of miles. Majeau-bettez paper estimates 22kg CO2/kg of NCM and LFP batteries based on re-mixing data from a paper by Rydh, "Energy analysis of batteries in photovoltaic systems. Part I: Performance and energy requirements" published in 2005. This value is very high. Much higher than the estimate given in the Rydh paper, much higher than some later papers

For instance, this much newer Argonne National Labs paper, Impact of recycling on cradle-to-gate energy consumption and greenhouse gas emissions of automotive lithium-ion batteries Dunn, Jennifer B ; Gaines, Linda ; Sullivan, John ; Wang, Michael Q Environmental science & technology, 2012, Vol.46(22), pp.12704-10

This one actually references the Majeau-bettez paper and notes that all the previous research is based on European production and use. Well, we know that is not the case for Tesla. The batteries are made by Panasonic in Japan (or China). Mr. Straubel says Japan, but we know that Panasonic made a new factory in China and stopped the expansion in Japan, so it isn't clear given the timelines whether current batteries come from Panasonic's China or Japan factories. In any case, the glider, the motor and many other of the big and heavy parts of the Model S is made in the U.S. There is 55% US+Canada content. Since the batteries come from Asia and are such a large and heavy component, that doesn't leave much more that isn't from US or Canada. Which means a lot of the GHG estimates based on European production and European power supplies is wrong. Further, since California has very little coal electricity production, the energy mix is actually much better than these papers suggest. Even in Japan, the coal production percentage is quite low (used to be a large percentage of nuclear, but obviously no more). In any case, the Dunn paper argues for a CO2 production level that is less than half of the Majeua-bettez paper, citing 10 MJ/kg as the "rough upper bound." Further, battery assembly is only 6% of the total energy in a cradle to grave scenario in this paper.

So after all of this… we basically are nowhere. Not really. It is likely that a Model S would take more greenhouse emissions to create due to the battery than a comparable internal combustion engine car, but there are enough factors thrown about all over the place that doesn't even necessarily make that true. Now in the use phase, using Fuel Economy you can examine the impact of greenhouse gases on a daily basis. This requires your zip code because the impact varies depending on the electricity production in your specific case. I don't personally believe that solar at your house in a grid-tie arrangement truly lowers your greenhouse emissions for the Tesla Model S itself (it does in aggregate with your other activities), but the exact mix of natural gas, hydro, nuclear, and coal all significantly affect the resulting impact. Certainly for CA and New England, the greenhouse gas emissions are far lower in a Model S than any comparable internal combustion engine powered car.

Whew.
 
There are no tax incentives worth mentioning in the EU. Why? Well obviously because EU car manufacturers have no volume production capabilities for electric cars yet and therefore have not lobbied for tax incentives. So, BMW electric cars could actually benefit Tesla sales in the EU if incentives are to follow...

LOL. In Norway the cheapest BMW M5 COSTs 300 000$, whats the price in the US?
Gasoline cost way higher than in the US aswell.
 
Mod Note: There's lots of diverse opinion on TMC and sometimes the discussion is passionate, sometimes people come here uninformed (many of us started out that way) so let's stop with labeling people as a "troll" every time someone makes a mistake OK?

There's some thoughtful posts on this thread and hopefully many of us have learned some things (not the least of which is that not everyone else knows everything we do). The are some viewpoints that aren't popular in here also and, so long as it doesn't look deliberately malicious, I'm going to them the benefit of the doubt and let them stand. If you don't like them well...you always have option to not look at this thread.

Now, back on topic please.
 
LOL. In Norway the cheapest BMW M5 COSTs 300 000$, whats the price in the US?
Gasoline cost way higher than in the US aswell.

Yes, Norway have hefty taxes on cars. Not a member of the EU though. Has also had domestic electric car production for years (Think) so therefore tax incentive lobying by industry has already occured. Just as I wrote. More countries will follow, but more likely because of industry lobying than that of general do-gooders.
 
I like shorts. I like those that want to argue against the company as I do not want to be short sighted. I like opposing viewpoints, do not ban

Realist called Elon Musk visionary! He is correct.

Realist has not driven the car and so I would suggest he has not done enough research. I've done my research and that is why I have my strong convictions.
 
Please allow me to add two more data points:

• I visited the Tesla factory last week. A digital sign inside read... Cars Produced Last Week: 544 Today's Goal: 100

• 1 in 4 people who take a test drive at a Tesla Store are placing an order for a Model S. That's an extraordinary conversion rate.

Seriously thanks for sharing that. 544 cars last week is very impressive. I'm wondering if they did more than 100 cars a day last week then?
 
There are no tax incentives worth mentioning in the EU ...



You need to take your head out from under a rock !!

There are some superb tax incentives / benefits to be had for purchasing and driving zero emission cars within the EU, so much that the car will pay for itself in a matter of years.


Firstly, If you purchase a zero emission car here in the UK, and buy it through a company (one man entity or larger) you get to write down the entire purchase cost against corp-tax, which is like having an instant 28% discount off the purchase price. On a UK Tesla Roadster that was (for me) an instant discount of $41,000. Not to be sneezed at.


Secondly, I show below rough calculations of what can be saved over a projected 8 yr period at 15,000 miles per year (total of 120k miles), with 5% inflation applied to fuel / road tax and congestion charges, and assuming the £ / $ exchange rate is $1.55 to £1. Petrol and diesel in the UK and much of the EU averages around $10.70 per UK gallon at the moment, and wont be getting cheaper anytime soon. My fuel bill for 15,000 miles in a "sporty Audi" used to be the equivalent of $8,900 a year. If I charge my Roadster (or any EV) from night time grid electricity, that annual charge drops 95% to a ridiculously low $360 a year. (And if you've got PV on your roof and receive feed In Tariff payments, you actually get paid about 20cents a mile to drive your car . . . but that’s another topic)


For petrol I'll be about $79,000 better off over 8 years . . (seriously !!)

Then there's zero congestion charges for EV's, saving a further $31,000 over 8 years if you commute daily.

Plus, there's also zero road tax for EV's, so that’s another $7,000 saved over next 8 yrs.


I am taking advantage of all of the above, so by using my Tesla for the next 8 yrs instead of my Audi, I will be approx $158,400 better off (ie, $41k + $79k + $31k + $7k).

In other words my likely savings of driving an EV in the EU for the next 8 yrs will exceed the purchase cost of my Roadster (or Model S in due course) !!!

No matter which way you look at it and which parts of the above savings apply to an EU EV purchaser, the long term financial tax benefits and savings are ludicrously good when compared to buying ICE cars, even if its just the massive reduction in petrol costs . . .



If you don’t want to believe any of the above, that’s fine, its still a relatively free world, no ones forcing you to buy an EV, you carry on buying petrol cars and be happy with yourself . . . . :rolleyes:
 
Much of the discussion topics raised by Realist are just nonsense, such as charging inefficiencies, pricing, "inadequate range" and this issues relation to supercharging and swapping, how BMW or [insert any other car manufacturer in the world] will soon have better offerings.

On his part, and also to some extent on "our" part, to debate these issues is really just a pseudo-debate since we will never agree on any of this as much of it is subjective, and we have already made up our minds about the only real and important issues and this colors our opinion on these "pseudo-issues" extensively. The real and defining issues of course are:

- Are electric cars going to replace cars based on internal combustion engines as the main form of personal transport? [Yes]

- Is this transition going to take place faster than most would believe? [Yes] (This is a disruptive technology, make no mistake about it, and we as humans are not intuitively capable of seeing when we are at the beginning of an exponential growth curve pattern - it looks flat or linear at first and then it "explodes". It's not until we look back that we realize that we were in the early phase of an exponential growth situation. This is why almost no-one was able to predict how fast the internet would grow, how soon the number of people living in extreme poverty in the world would be cut in half, and so on and so on.)

- Is another technology, for example natural gas cars or hydrogen fuel-cell cars (with EV drive train) going to prove better and steal EV's thunder? [No]

- The above three questions answered gives you a definite answer to the third important question: Does Tesla have a growing market in the years to come [Yes]

- Is Tesla years ahead of all competition in this field [Yes] (I have yet to see proof of anything to contradict this)

- Does Tesla's track record show that they can keep up the pace and hence keep up their lead? [Yes - at least for years to come] (In the long run Tesla risks becoming a less agile, inflexible and stagnant giant, much like AAPL, GM, FORD etc. etc. but this is in a way inevitable and not really the issue here).

So I repeat: Alea iacta est. Place your bets.

Nicely put.

To resonate these points, I shameless promote my article here:

Truth Or Myth: Most People Still Don't Get Tesla

Realist, I invite you to cast your verdict to the arguments there. So we know what sort of orientation in your mind better. And I believe you are one of those "Most People" in the title.
 
You need to take your head out from under a rock !!

There are some superb tax incentives / benefits to be had for purchasing and driving zero emission cars within the EU, so much that the car will pay for itself in a matter of years.


Firstly, If you purchase a zero emission car here in the UK, and buy it through a company (one man entity or larger) you get to write down the entire purchase cost against corp-tax, which is like having an instant 28% discount off the purchase price. On a UK Tesla Roadster that was (for me) an instant discount of $41,000. Not to be sneezed at.


Secondly, I show below rough calculations of what can be saved over a projected 8 yr period at 15,000 miles per year (total of 120k miles), with 5% inflation applied to fuel / road tax and congestion charges, and assuming the £ / $ exchange rate is $1.55 to £1. Petrol and diesel in the UK and much of the EU averages around $10.70 per UK gallon at the moment, and wont be getting cheaper anytime soon. My fuel bill for 15,000 miles in a "sporty Audi" used to be the equivalent of $8,900 a year. If I charge my Roadster (or any EV) from night time grid electricity, that annual charge drops 95% to a ridiculously low $360 a year. (And if you've got PV on your roof and receive feed In Tariff payments, you actually get paid about 20cents a mile to drive your car . . . but that’s another topic)


For petrol I'll be about $79,000 better off over 8 years . . (seriously !!)

Then there's zero congestion charges for EV's, saving a further $31,000 over 8 years if you commute daily.

Plus, there's also zero road tax for EV's, so that’s another $7,000 saved over next 8 yrs.


I am taking advantage of all of the above, so by using my Tesla for the next 8 yrs instead of my Audi, I will be approx $158,400 better off (ie, $41k + $79k + $31k + $7k).

In other words my likely savings of driving an EV in the EU for the next 8 yrs will exceed the purchase cost of my Roadster (or Model S in due course) !!!

No matter which way you look at it and which parts of the above savings apply to an EU EV purchaser, the long term financial tax benefits and savings are ludicrously good when compared to buying ICE cars, even if its just the massive reduction in petrol costs . . .



If you don’t want to believe any of the above, that’s fine, its still a relatively free world, no ones forcing you to buy an EV, you carry on buying petrol cars and be happy with yourself . . . . :rolleyes:

If you cant tell the difference between goverment tax subsidies and TCO, then perhaps we should discuss this at a more basic level.

If you trade in your ICE for a horse, are you receiving a tax subsidy then because you are using untaxed grass instead of taxed gasoline? Somehow your post gave me that impression.

Perhaps you should re-read my earlier post. Subsidies in EU are likely to increase as more electric cars are being manufactured here. Simple as that.
 
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If someone wants to apply their limited knowledge of physics, unfounded guesses about future demand, and wild opinions with no evidence behind them and use that to guide their decisions to play in the stock market - more power to them.
I will profit at their expense.
 
If you cant tell the difference between goverment tax subsidies and TCO, then perhaps we should discuss this at a more basic level.

If you trade in your ICE for a horse, are you receiving a tax subsidy then because you are using untaxed grass instead of taxed gasoline? Somehow your post gave me that impression.

Perhaps you should re-read my earlier post. Subsidies in EU are likely to increase as more electric cars are being manufactured here. Simple as that.


Its leads to the same thing.

Electric Vehicle Incentives | Tesla Motors

thats a good overview of all the benefits an EV has.

For example the regulators in the EU are so strict that Aston Martin had to build and sell this car
Aston Martin Cygnet – Wikipedia to be inline with the regulations



In a recent talk the CEO of Honda Carlos Ghosn at Stanford, pointed out how regulations can form a market.
EU has a share of 60% Diesel cars, the US and Japan only 1%, that just shows how powerful regulations can be.
 
I like shorts. I like those that want to argue against the company as I do not want to be short sighted. I like opposing viewpoints, do not ban
Opposing viewpoints based on accurate data are fine. Spreading FUD is not.

Realist has not driven the car and so I would suggest he has not done enough research. I've done my research and that is why I have my strong convictions.
I've never driven the car either, it's not a prerequisite to understand the potential. In fact there are a few people who have driven the car and are still not convinced.