Yes, it's level 2 so how can it be called "Full Self Driving"? Most people would associate that with level 5 (Full Automation). Misleading is an understatement.
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Discussion: Tesla Energy / Auto Customer Service
- Thread starter jimm01
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- elon is an ass
Yes, it's level 2 so how can it be called "Full Self Driving"? Most people would associate that with level 5 (Full Automation). Misleading is an understatement.
It's semantics. Tesla does not call it "Full Automation." If so then it would violate NHTSA policy on the definitions of autonomous vehicles. In this context "Full Self Driving" has no official meaning.
Eeehhh, this wouldn't be the first time product marketing puffed something up and the actual product doesn't deliver expectations hah. Like, before you bought your Tesla (assuming you have a Tesla), do you remember all the data points you saw about your car and the entire car buying process? With traditional ICE autos, almost everything is fudged to some degree; and people just sort of learn to live with the puff. The entire sales process is full of misdirection, false inference, and a gouge on your psyche.
If there's something being sold, it's often there will be mis-direction to some extent. It's up to the customer to see through the BS. Which is an unfortunate way to operate since most of the time the customer doesn't have enough information to make smart decisions. Like look at the homeowners in the article that started this thread. They thought their roof was ready for some panels... but evidently the roof was not ready. And Tesla argues that ill-informed mindset is the homeowner's fault because of how the contract is written.
If you ever win the lottery and have an amazingly large amount of time and money to commit to a silly societal experiment, go into a normal car dealership and offer to pay full MSRP on a shiny $60,000 car parked in the middle of the showroom (I'm picking $60k to include the mid-ish-tier autos but exclude the ultra-high-end). You will be amazed at how carefree, fun, exciting, and pampered the experience will be. Then feel great about the follow up calls you get asking about your experience and whether or not there's anything they can do to make owning said vehicle the best experience possible.
Then go into another showroom but of the same Make, find that same $60k MSRP vehicle. But this time haggle it down to $48k. Suffer the sadness and pain of the sales gauntlet and witness each and every time they lean on you during the negotiation. Then behold when you get ushered out the door and never hear a peep from the salesperson again because they hate your guts and have moved on to the next client. But at least if your car breaks down you can take it wherever and they'll gladly service it.
Contrast that with Tesla customers who gladly want to pay full MSRP. And then they get put in a 90 day confusing EDD queue; often have to drive 2 hours to pick up their car; and then get condescended/snarked at if they bring up an observation that the sunroof is misaligned, door seals are crooked; smudges on the headliners, etc. And when the car has some funky error that needs parts, watch as Tesla tells the owner to wait 2 weeks and not even provide a loaner if the car is inoperable because Tesla has no loaners or extra cars available.
I'm fine with all that in general except when it comes to things that can be life critical. Especially using customers to QC things that can be life critical.
offering to pay "full msrp" will absolutely, positively NOT stop the "finance person" from attempting to pack all sorts of extras, window etching, extended warranties, etc etc onto your already agreed upon deal. The ONLY way to have the experience you described at a regular dealership is either to:
- Be friends with either the sales manager or general manager of the location, and have agreed upon pricing
- Offer to pay both full MSRP and also say "yes please" to any and all add ons they pack onto the deal
- Never review your paperwork for Additional "AIT (air in tire) fees, or other charges for things that sound official but arent.
Its not cheaper to buy direct, people who believe that are silly, but most people dont really CARE about "cheaper" they just dont want to be taken advantage of. No one cares, really, if the manufacturer makes a boatload of money on a 60k car. They care that jonny down the street paid 47k for the exact same car that they paid 60k for, or that someone in CA with a lot of dealerships around paid 8k less than they did in the middle of the midwest for their BMW.
People, in general, just dont want to be ripped off. If "everyone" who bought "Car X" for 60k on the same day I bought "Car X" paid the exact same thing, all across the country, no one feels ripped off, and everyone is happy, regardless of whether "Car X" cost the manufacturer 55k to make, or 39k to make. No one would care.
EDIT: My general comments are directed at what I feel people in the US want, as, for the most part, the USA is not a country where "negotiating everything" is woven into the fabric of the culture, like some other countries. We negotiate things here obviously, but for the most part, its not something that is "enjoyed" or woven into everything like other places, at least in my personal opinion.
Of course there are those that like to negotiate, but for the most part its "tolerated" for most.
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Yeah I was using the lotto example to make it a cash thing and remove the F&I guy and used car guy and whatever from the deal. But I guess someone would still stick it to the full MSRP person with trying to schill some extended warranty.
Regarding the ripped off feeling, that's why there's a downward sloping demand curve. Each buyer is supposed to transact at the point that makes sense to them. That's why I'm actually in favor of negotiations as a means to set the price. Jane Doe could pay $60k for the same car that I only pay $50k because I spent time in the sales sweatbox. With every transaction, we learn what is the "fair" price for each individual instead of some egalitarian price that is subvented with government-money.
After-sales service is always the tough one... because there's no more money to be had with service. Now it's just honoring the promise(s) of the original sale so it's too easy to cut corners and go with the bare bones to satisfy "the contract."
I believe you are in favor of this because of your background, both as someone who worked in the auto industry in some capacity, and someone who works in finance. "most people" are not interested in the slightest in the "sweatbox", they just dont want to get ripped off. This is coming from someone whose background is in Sales / Customer service.
FWIW, i am very good at the negotiation part of auto deals, learned over time of being ripped off when I was younger, and having more information available as we moved to "the internet age" which makes it much easier to gather information. I am also very good at "developing a relationship" with a dealership, such that the "person who can say yes" (typically a sales manager) wants to say yes to me, as I am also not a @#$!@ when negotiating on this stuff.
Just because I am good at it, doesnt mean I like it... and I think most people fall into the same bucket, even if they "know how to get a deal", which would likely apply to the financial bracket of most of the people who have the finances to be purchasing Solar and or Energy storage.
Said another way, its likely that "most" of the people who have homes, solar and powerwalls are also good at this type of negotiation, but its likely that even they "tolerate" it, and would prefer not to do it.
Why do you think GM/Saturn's "flat pricing for all" didn't work out? Saturn's cars were priced very attractively... and by and large their customers liked the experience end-to-end.
Lol fair enough.
IMO, I think if I offered the opportunity to people on TMC to sit in the sweatbox for a few hours and take $5,000 - $10,000 off the price of their Model-Whatever (in addition to all those government EV spiffs they may have received), they'd be game.
Yeah, I've tried to train friends and colleagues on how to combat the normal car dealership sales model while still making sure the transaction is "fair" for the folks in showroom. But people think I'm being a super jerk hah and they won't bring themselves to do some of the tactics.
I agree that a normal consumer isn't really ready to fight dirty to really take advantage of the North American car sales model. Basically you need to turn the sales game against the showroom, and since they're trained on so many negotiation tactics it's really hard to get a deal done.
The average long-lived showroom has survived because they know how to find the "right" price for everybody that came into the sales gauntlet. One dealership we looked at actually made their sweatbox have a south/west facing window and they "broke" the AC vent going into the sweatbox. Saved this room for their most hardcore bargain seekers. Fun times to be had for everyone except the two schlubs stuck negotiating a few thousand bucks in the room.
Some salespeople out there aren't really fans of the (figurative) sweatbox selling approach, but they also don't last very long in that line of work selling cars. It's probably best for everyone's mental health for Tesla to come in and show what happens without the middleman in the sales process.
A TED talk about car sales is probably more exciting than a TED talk about how to read a NEM2-PS solar black and white PG&E bill. But the PG&E bill is more complicated.
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The internet has made that entire process (the sweatbox, as you put it) mostly unnecessary for well equipped buyers. By "well equipped" I mean people with top tier credit who have their choice of their own or dealer financing, and understand how to craft an email that wont get ignored by traditional car dealerships that want to "give you the best price when you are in person at the dealership".
Back to Tesla, removing all that makes most people very happy. Almost everyone but franchise dealerships would be happy if that entire model was blown up. Even dealers themselves likely would rather make money on used cars and service, the internet has made it so a traditional dealer is not making a lot of money on the typical new car purchase, if you dont count holdback, etc.
There are those that think it will be cheaper, but the one thing I agree with you on, on this topic, is that it wont be cheaper. The last 4 BMWs I got for "several thousand" under "invoice" (quotes because I know how that game is also played), would all be MSRP. I also got buy rate on the lease financing, with no markup, but the average person who is leasing may not even know what money factor is, or that its marked up.
Not having a "finance person" whose job is supposedly to help process the paperwork, but whose real job is to increase dealership profit by packing warranties and such on your deal for "only 39.95 more a month on your payment" when I bought my model 3 was one of the most liberating experiences ever, in relation to buying a vehicle.
The tesla MVPA was like 2-3 pages, if that, not something designed to be confusing so that a dealer can make more money by packing stuff on it that looks official.
Of course, other car manufacturers want to do the same thing, because it would increase THEIR profit, not to pay holdback, or whatever, and just set a price and have people pay it. A manufacturer could actually make more money AND still offer cars less than what the current MSRP is for most of them, since they are selling cars to dealers with all this back end money (to hide actual invoice pricing, etc from internet savvy people).
None of this has anything to do with tesla energy, or really, tesla customer service, other than the model that tesla is putting forth works better for both them (more cash in their pocket) AND buyers (much less stress in the transaction, not much worry that jim down the street paid 5k less on the same car, yesterday).
Teslas failure on a lot of this stuff is the belief that everything can be automated, removing people in general from the equation entirely if at all possible. younger generation people want this, currently "people with the money" skew older, and still want human contact for this stuff.
Their refusal to hire "enough" customer service people stems from the "we will make it all streamlined and wont need as many people" approach that they have, which they have not quite succeeded with. Younger people are not interested in even talking to someone to buy a car, let alone negotiating, and would be willing to spend more money to avoid it.
Yeah the industry evolved to the extent a few google searches give the customer false confidence that they’ve got “data” and the dealer just works them over. The fake invoices and fake incentives sheets sales people show to customers is so bogus. I’ve never understood how it’s legal to flat lie to people sometimes lol.
I think the best prices take some work… I haven’t seen showrooms give rock bottom pricing without some sweat.
The funny thing about both auto and solar is typically a customer pays a premium for things to be easy. The cheaper something gets, the more of a pain in the butt it becomes haha.
I think the best prices take some work… I haven’t seen showrooms give rock bottom pricing without some sweat.
The funny thing about both auto and solar is typically a customer pays a premium for things to be easy. The cheaper something gets, the more of a pain in the butt it becomes haha.
Somewhat paradoxically (or not, i guess), the more traditional "luxury" ICE dealers dont tend to play half as many games. Negotiating on the BMWs was fairly painless, especially when I started dealing with a high volume salesperson who basically specialized in internet deals. No test drives, etc... but really good at knowing all the ins and outs about ordering the spec you wanted, and not playing any of those games I talked about earlier.
Conversely, I bought my daughter a new hyundai in 2015, and they tried to 4 box me right off the bat. I got up to leave and they actually complained about how I wasnt giving them a chance, etc. The first time the salesperson got up to "let me go talk to my manager" I got up to leave again. The salesperson followed me out, and I told them I wasnt going to do the back and forth game, get the person who can either agree to the deal or not out there to talk to me, or I would move on.
The sales manager then came out, we finally got to a deal after he was basically adversarial, then they tried to work me over on the paperwork, made several "mistakes" on the paperwork that, funnily enough, always were tilted for a few hundred dollars here or there in their favor, etc.
What can you say it's biological they love being screwed. How do you tell when car salesmen are lying?
Their lips are moving.
I'm talking about getting cars at like 70% of MSRP though... like bargaining a $60k window sticker down to to $42k before taxes/titles/fees and stuff. I don't think people have the appetite for this, but it's do-able at certain time of the year if you're not picky about the VIN/build. You just need to sweat a bit. But it's kind of fun... right? no? ok nope, it's not fun.
Like some cars just don't move off of inventory (usually the car is allocated and the dealer is stuck with a weird build). I got a new, fully loaded Grand Cherokee a few years ago that was like $56k down to $27k after taxes, title, and delivered by flatbed to my parents' house. There are some insane-o incentives on certain units as the model year is phasing out.
Ok yeah, but thats absolutely not for me, because I want the car I want, in the color I want, with the features I want. Almost 20 years of BMW leasing, with the last 12 ordering the exact build I want, doesnt lead itself to taking the car the dealer wants to unload because of various reasons.
Im not "flexible on Vin / Build", at least not since I could get into this car price point space.
Tesla is basically catering to the way you shop lol. But most buyers (the ones who don't post on internet forums) just find some crumb-bumb car on the lot that kind of floats their boat. Then they go about picking the "fair" price for the hunk of metal. And that's where the pain sticks come in. But if the buyer is willing to pay 92% of MSRP (before taxes/title/etc) that's like a relatively easy peasy deal that usually goes over without much pain. This is because the car buyer is paying a huge premium.
The salespeople love it when someone looks online at those fake marketing/BS websites. These phony crap lead-gen sites say "invoice" on a $60,000 car would be like $55,800. The dealer takes $800 off this fake invoice and is like "oh man you got this car less than invoice! You are such a good negotiator wow you made us work for that!"
Of course with Tesla, customers are like "I just clicked a ton of radio boxes and agreed to pay $60k... lol whatever". Such a difference in shopping mentality lol. Tesla is making a killing on these less price sensitive folks.
Dipping well below the 87% of MSRP mark is usually where the old school sweatbox happens. I want to believe it's happening less often, but I don't think it is. I got an ICE Volvo pre-COVID. I was shocked to see the old-school sweatbox approach was still working just as it had been a decade prior when I bought my previous car. I had thought Tesla/California attitudes to have rocked the industry + generational shifts in mindset. But whatever... got a cheap-ass Volvo out of the deal and lost like 2 pounds in sweat.
After sales service from Volvo has been stellar though. I think no matter which Boomer, GenX, GenY, Gen blah blah you ask, they all want good after-sales service. I look forward to seeing how Tesla finds a way to do service better than everyone else. But for now, they're looking pretty bad on that front. I know we kind of see the worst-of-the-worst examples in this Energy forum. But it just seems to me Tesla is way understaffed and whipping their teams way too hard.
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