Do you need fire suppression for 3x Powerwalls in Northern California?

[holeydonut]

I guess my angry emails about lack of communication and ambiguous delays with Sunrun finally got elevated to someone higher up on corporate ladder. I got pinged today by the local Sunrun branch manager via text so he could update me on my installation (yeah, on a Saturday).

I acknowledge the branch manager isn't actually my PM; so he actually wasn't able to get to the root cause(s) of what is getting botched on my order with them. But due to the pinch point that I created for him by elevating my gripes, he said he was going to take over as my PM starting next week.

Paraphrasing some of the info he texted me today; he implies I'd be their first customer doing 3x Powerwalls in Contra Costa County. And this may have opened up a Pandora's box of crazy checklist items. It appears to me that Sunrun wasn't well equipped to handle these quickly and for some reason they decided to not tell me anything until now. This is rather upsetting since they are a publicly traded company installing hardware that is part of a huge advertising campaign. But whatever.

I think some of his texts were just a litany of excuses that weren't actually specific to my situation (like he was just rattling off possible issues since he didn't have full access to all my account details yet). But, one text he sent jumped out. He said

"the fire department may need to inspect for large battery systems increasing your timeline by at least 12 weeks plus other onsite requirements like dedicated fire suppression or fire extinguishers"

I responded back asking if he understood I'm a homeowner trying to get this in a detached single family home; not some factory or warehouse. But it's this type of language that apparently is tripping up Sunrun's own internal processes and possibly influencing the parties they're seeking approval.

I checked the CFC and I guess section 608.5.1 does require some fire detection and suppression on energy storage. But this can't possibly be required for residential homes right? I mean an active sprinkler system just seems like massive overkill and I've never heard of a homeowner needing this type of thing for a residential installation.

 

[jjrandorin]

I dont have an answer to your question (obviously), but is this related to the thread @Vines created talking about smoke detectors etc?

Have you looked through this thread?

Santa Clara County retroactively Changing ESS Rules

In that thread, there are specific instances of counties in northern cal forcing active smoke detection, etc... with things still up in the air.

Take a read, that might be what you are dealing with.

 

[Vines]

Well, section CFC 608 is part of the previous year code cycle, so the proper code to point them at is CRC R327, or 1206 for Commercial installations.

We installed 5 Powerwalls in Contra Costa county AHJ about 6 months ago, no issues. That was outside however, not sure if you are going for a garage interior location. Also, things change for sure in the AHJ offices, which is hard to predict exactly when. It's not supposed to change until July 1, 2021, when the interim code cycle is enforced. That code is now finalized and so there is a CALFIRE official clarification on this topic, that declares confused AHJ's can use the forward looking code now that it's finalized. However, being that the new code requires 3' separation between Powerwalls, or 9450A listing, its not going to do you any favors unless you have a lot of wall space.

You'd rather push through R327 current code rules, and ignore that whole can of worms. All this is going to do is delay your installation.

 

[Vines]

On Site fire suppression is a pretty heavy duty requirement, if that is enforced you are actually better off sending them the clarification, and spacing them 3' apart, and installing heat detectors.

As you say, he could be just making excuses for the delays, using a reasonable sounding excuse. Ask him to show you the plan check comments if he starts pulling heavy duty delays due to fire inspection. I suspect its due to a lack of product, Powerwalls are still scarce.

 

[wwhitney]

However, being that the new code requires 3' separation between Powerwalls, or 9450A listing

The current Powerwall spec sheet shows UL9540 certification. Is that what you mean, or is 9450A something different?

Cheers, Wayne

 

[holeydonut]

Well, section CFC 608 is part of the previous year code cycle, so the proper code to point them at is CRC R327, or 1206 for Commercial installations.

We installed 5 Powerwalls in Contra Costa county AHJ about 6 months ago, no issues. That was outside however, not sure if you are going for a garage interior location. Also, things change for sure in the AHJ offices, which is hard to predict exactly when. It's not supposed to change until July 1, 2021, when the interim code cycle is enforced. That code is now finalized and so there is a CALFIRE official clarification on this topic, that declares confused AHJ's can use the forward looking code now that it's finalized. However, being that the new code requires 3' separation between Powerwalls, or 9450A listing, its not going to do you any favors unless you have a lot of wall space.

You'd rather push through R327 current code rules, and ignore that whole can of worms. All this is going to do is delay your installation.

Lol I don't think I've drank enough to understand half of what you just said haha. So you think the Contra Costa AHJ's could be moving in the same direction as what you were seeing in Santa Clara? I'm going 3x in my garage... at least I'm trying to.

I feel like complying with these changes (or are they additions?) in R327 would make it impossible to get anything installed hah.

R327.6: Protection from Impact. Systems that are installed in a location subject to vehicle damage shall be protect by approved barriers.

What's next... you need to install bollards in your garage so your car can't ding the battery?

 

[jjrandorin]

Lol I don't think I've drank enough to understand half of what you just said haha. So you think the Contra Costa AHJ's could be moving in the same direction as what you were seeing in Santa Clara? I'm going 3x in my garage... at least I'm trying to.

I feel like complying with these changes (or are they additions?) in R327 would make it impossible to get anything installed hah.



What's next... you need to install bollards in your garage so your car can't ding the battery?

Actually, yeah I think thats what that means. I have a co worker who lives in a different city than I do, who had the first set of powerwall 2s installed in his city when they first came out. His AHJ made him put a bollard in his garage.

 

[holeydonut]

Actually, yeah I think thats what that means. I have a co worker who lives in a different city than I do, who had the first set of powerwall 2s installed in his city when they first came out. His AHJ made him put a bollard in his garage.

What. The. Hell.

 

[k-mal_808]

Here in Hawaii, well Oahu at least, bollards are a requirement for garage PW installs. Source: I have/had 2 in my garage. AMA. Lol. I removed them within minutes of the DPP inspector walking off of the property. My toddler thought they were cool though.

 

[jboy210]

I guess my angry emails about lack of communication and ambiguous delays with Sunrun finally got elevated to someone higher up on corporate ladder. I got pinged today by the local Sunrun branch manager via text so he could update me on my installation (yeah, on a Saturday).

I acknowledge the branch manager isn't actually my PM; so he actually wasn't able to get to the root cause(s) of what is getting botched on my order with them. But due to the pinch point that I created for him by elevating my gripes, he said he was going to take over as my PM starting next week.

Paraphrasing some of the info he texted me today; he implies I'd be their first customer doing 3x Powerwalls in Contra Costa County. And this may have opened up a Pandora's box of crazy checklist items. It appears to me that Sunrun wasn't well equipped to handle these quickly and for some reason they decided to not tell me anything until now. This is rather upsetting since they are a publicly traded company installing hardware that is part of a huge advertising campaign. But whatever.

I think some of his texts were just a litany of excuses that weren't actually specific to my situation (like he was just rattling off possible issues since he didn't have full access to all my account details yet). But, one text he sent jumped out. He said

"the fire department may need to inspect for large battery systems increasing your timeline by at least 12 weeks plus other onsite requirements like dedicated fire suppression or fire extinguishers"

I responded back asking if he understood I'm a homeowner trying to get this in a detached single family home; not some factory or warehouse. But it's this type of language that apparently is tripping up Sunrun's own internal processes and possibly influencing the parties they're seeking approval.

I checked the CFC and I guess section 608.5.1 does require some fire detection and suppression on energy storage. But this can't possibly be required for residential homes right? I mean an active sprinkler system just seems like massive overkill and I've never heard of a homeowner needing this type of thing for a residential installation.

No further information, but my neighbor is trying to get PowerWalls from SunRun and having a heck of a time. They have botched the installation twice. I have been meaning to go ask what is up but he seems pretty upset.

 

[holeydonut]

No further information, but my neighbor is trying to get PowerWalls from SunRun and having a heck of a time. They have botched the installation twice. I have been meaning to go ask what is up but he seems pretty upset.

On Site fire suppression is a pretty heavy duty requirement, if that is enforced you are actually better off sending them the clarification, and spacing them 3' apart, and installing heat detectors.

As you say, he could be just making excuses for the delays, using a reasonable sounding excuse. Ask him to show you the plan check comments if he starts pulling heavy duty delays due to fire inspection. I suspect its due to a lack of product, Powerwalls are still scarce.

Thanks Vines- the good news is he sent me a picture of the stack of stuff they’ve set aside for me (panels and Powerwalls). At least I hope it’s not just a generic picture of warehouse inventory haha.

I don’t know how anyone’s going to get large scale backup once/if the Bay Area counties start enforcing these new fire rules. Bollards and heat sensors and fire suppression seems nuts

 

[jjrandorin]

Thanks Vines- the good news is he sent me a picture of the stack of stuff they’ve set aside for me (panels and Powerwalls). At least I hope it’s not just a generic picture of warehouse inventory haha.

I don’t know how anyone’s going to get large scale backup once/if the Bay Area counties start enforcing these new fire rules. Bollards and heat sensors and fire suppression seems nuts

Doesnt it? Thats what @Vines was basically railing against. I totally get that the rules exist to keep us (and our neighbors) safe, but they seem very onerous. I keep going back to the point that we have been and continue to be, parking cars with 12-25+ gallons of flammable fuel in our garages every day, and no one is really trying to stop people from doing that... but putting battery storage in a garage and "hang on, thats dangerous!".

I mean, it does make sense to have bollards if you will be putting the powerwalls on a wall that is directly in front of where you would be pulling into the home.... but on the side (completely losing a parking spot for most garages) or like 3 feet apart (which people dont have that space in your average garage).

Just seems short sighted, when we should be encouraging people to purchase storage, not putting up massive obstacles.

Thats just my opinion though.

 

[Electrph]

Doesnt it? Thats what @Vines was basically railing against. I totally get that the rules exist to keep us (and our neighbors) safe, but they seem very onerous. I keep going back to the point that we have been and continue to be, parking cars with 12-25+ gallons of flammable fuel in our garages every day, and no one is really trying to stop people from doing that... but putting battery storage in a garage and "hang on, thats dangerous!".

I mean, it does make sense to have bollards if you will be putting the powerwalls on a wall that is directly in front of where you would be pulling into the home.... but on the side (completely losing a parking spot for most garages) or like 3 feet apart (which people dont have that space in your average garage).

Just seems short sighted, when we should be encouraging people to purchase storage, not putting up massive obstacles.

Thats just my opinion though.

your random application of reason and logic is not appreciated sir !!

 

[bmah]

Let's say you already have a 3 x Powerwall installation in one of these jurisdictions that's installed, paid for, inspected, PTO-ed, and operational. Can they make you rip it out because the installation doesn't comply with these rules that were passed / made effective after the fact?

Asking for a friend...

Bruce.

 

[jjrandorin]

Let's say you already have a 3 x Powerwall installation in one of these jurisdictions that's installed, paid for, inspected, PTO-ed, and operational. Can they make you rip it out because the installation doesn't comply with these rules that were passed / made effective after the fact?

Asking for a friend...

Bruce.

I am reasonably certain (though not 100% certain) that, once you receive official PTO with your configuration, you are good to go for that configuration. Now, if you want to go back and change something (say, add another powerwall), that would likely trigger another application for PTO, and whatever rules are in place at that new application would likely apply. Grandfathering rules (being able to keep things that were permitted when you installed them but may not be permitted now ) get pretty complicated, but I am almost positive that no one can make you come change something out of the blue, if you are not applying for something new.

 

[arnolddeleon]

I just found out that a friend who wanted 6 Powerwalls had to change it down to 5 because Santa Clara County Fire apparently has an 80 kWh limit for home energy storage.

 

[jboy210]

Let's say you already have a 3 x Powerwall installation in one of these jurisdictions that's installed, paid for, inspected, PTO-ed, and operational. Can they make you rip it out because the installation doesn't comply with these rules that were passed / made effective after the fact?

Asking for a friend...

Bruce.

I would assume you would be grandfathered in. But if you went to add a 4th PowerWall then you are open to another inspection and having to meet current requirements to pass.

 

[Vines]

I just found out that a friend who wanted 6 Powerwalls had to change it down to 5 because Santa Clara County Fire apparently has an 80 kWh limit for home energy storage.

Yes more than 80 kWh and the requirements are even more onerous.

Let's say you already have a 3 x Powerwall installation in one of these jurisdictions that's installed, paid for, inspected, PTO-ed, and operational. Can they make you rip it out because the installation doesn't comply with these rules that were passed / made effective after the fact?

Asking for a friend...

Bruce.

If you are signed off at final inspection you are grandfathered in 100%

Lol I don't think I've drank enough to understand half of what you just said haha. So you think the Contra Costa AHJ's could be moving in the same direction as what you were seeing in Santa Clara? I'm going 3x in my garage... at least I'm trying to.

I feel like complying with these changes (or are they additions?) in R327 would make it impossible to get anything installed hah.



What's next... you need to install bollards in your garage so your car can't ding the battery?

Yes, Bollards are required for any ground level garage installation in a county that SCC fire looks at. The bollards are no joke either, like 5" tube with 3/8" wall, filled with concrete and welded to a massive plate. The average garage floor in a residence will not take the anchorage requirements, Nor will an average bollard be strong enough. A custom bollard needs to be ordered and installed. SCC Fire is expecting those bollards to withstand 12k lb force (6k force at about 2' off the ground) which is a pretty stiff requirement.

Someone who really wanted to install more than 5 Powerwall's, has to build a battery room/bunker.

The bollard requirement has actually be in the code a while, it is just not heavily enforced. I am in discussion with the SCC Fire team trying to get clarity on which locations inside a garage are not subject to damage.

 

[Vines]

The current Powerwall spec sheet shows UL9540 certification. Is that what you mean, or is 9450A something different?

Cheers, Wayne

Yes, 9540A is the standard for "Evaluating thermal runaway fire propagation in battery energy storage systems"

If you dig into the text of the new R327 this is the standard required, to justify closer ESS separation than 3'

Literally only 1 battery that I know of is tested to this standard, and the NRTL isnt accredited to do this testing. I heard of San Fransisco rejecting an installation which was listed to 9540A by a NRTL (Intertek I think) and the city disallowed the listing mark to be valid because the NRTL wasn't accredited by OSHA.

 

[Vines]

Lol I don't think I've drank enough to understand half of what you just said haha. So you think the Contra Costa AHJ's could be moving in the same direction as what you were seeing in Santa Clara? I'm going 3x in my garage... at least I'm trying to.

I feel like complying with these changes (or are they additions?) in R327 would make it impossible to get anything installed hah.



What's next... you need to install bollards in your garage so your car can't ding the battery?

I am saying I dont know that but its possible. If you hear that they are doing them same please let me know, and I will add them to the list.