That looks very much like what I want, thanks. I even found it here. Is everything in that photo (minus the wire damage) OK with California/PG&E?
I'm looking around the Milbank site trying to find similar designs and holy cow is that a challenge.
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Does Tesla ever install solar + powerwall systems using Line Side Tap? (In California with PG&E)
- Thread starter Yonki
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I'm looking around the Milbank site trying to find similar designs and holy cow is that a challenge.
You can restrict your attention to products labeled as EUSERC compliant, as that is one of PG&E's requirements, to my knowledge.
If you want to look at a catalog, the one you want is the Western Regions catalog,
Cheers, Wayne
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From what I understand this panel is no longer allowed in my area, not sure about yours but I doubt it. It lacks a specific type of bypass required for 400A services.
There are inventive ways to do this, but it depends on if the AHJ accepts it with a combination meter main, (and the type of meter main type). I was able to get mine to agree to bypassing the main breaker and busbars and route conductors directly to the gateway with the service disconnect now located there instead.
This is interesting. My combo meter main has wires (like 0 gauge) running through the separator panel from the meter side to the main breakers. So I guess it would be possible to remove those short wires and replace them with longer wires to the gateway. But I don't know how those wires would get out from the flush-mount combo box to a surface-mount gateway, especially considering that the space inside the main is already tight.
The issue becomes the UL listing of that panel is voided. It is no longer service equipment, and the main bonding jumper may be improperly located if you don't disconnect it (or cut it if it's not able to be disconnected) inside this panel.
The first piece of equipment after the meter with overcurrent protection is your main service panel. It is possible to do what you mention, but its not strictly NEC compliant. It is still safe in some cases, and might be approved by your AHJ. Sunnyvale might not catch it.
The first piece of equipment after the meter with overcurrent protection is your main service panel. It is possible to do what you mention, but its not strictly NEC compliant. It is still safe in some cases, and might be approved by your AHJ. Sunnyvale might not catch it.
My concern is when you say the AHJ may not catch it. When a home sells, most get a home inspection. IF they were to catch it, could be trouble.
And if the seller knew this, and did not disclose, could be a large law suit.
When I have done my complete house remodel, I have made sure all the contractors at every step got full permits!!!!! There were times when the building department even said but no one would catch that so you do not have to update the permit, and I said yep, update the permit. I sleep so much better at night knowing I played NO games.
@slcasner Basically, the breaker would come out, and you can use Polaris type connectors to run it onto to the gateway via more wire.
Anyway, as @Vines has said, there are ramifications with the UL listing etc, so this is not something you would really want to do ideally and I would recommend a panel swap if you can. I just didn't go this route since I'd already swapped my panel myself a couple of years back, and was not about to go through this again after adding another Powerwall and doing whole home
Mine is reversible anyway, and if I get to the point that I'd sell my house and a home inspector highlights it, its defendable somewhat with the fact that the new owner has an ESS system fitted (covered by my City's approved plans)... and if they don't like it, one or more of the powerwalls can come out, and my install would revert to perhaps having the loads distributed again between the MSP and the Sub panel/backup load center (currently my backup load panel) which would be derated again to 100A. Or get the MSP swapped out again for one that allows more flexibility with regard to the 120 rule / one that allows a 200A sub panel connections etc.
Anyway, as @Vines has said, there are ramifications with the UL listing etc, so this is not something you would really want to do ideally and I would recommend a panel swap if you can. I just didn't go this route since I'd already swapped my panel myself a couple of years back, and was not about to go through this again after adding another Powerwall and doing whole home
Mine is reversible anyway, and if I get to the point that I'd sell my house and a home inspector highlights it, its defendable somewhat with the fact that the new owner has an ESS system fitted (covered by my City's approved plans)... and if they don't like it, one or more of the powerwalls can come out, and my install would revert to perhaps having the loads distributed again between the MSP and the Sub panel/backup load center (currently my backup load panel) which would be derated again to 100A. Or get the MSP swapped out again for one that allows more flexibility with regard to the 120 rule / one that allows a 200A sub panel connections etc.
Is there some way that the wires coming back from the gateway can attach to the buss bars where the breaker was removed? Because I don't think my buss bars have any provision for lugs. Even so, I don't see how to route those four heavy wires in and out of the box.
I submitted a job request to PG&E to find out if it was feasible to upgrade my panel. I was told doing any upgrade to the panel would require upgrading the underground service line which is direct burial cable under the neighbor's yard. That's not going to happen.
Theoretically, this happens with another large breaker. It needs to be screwed or bolted down, then it is allowed to backfeed a distribution bus.
Wire bend radius is the typical reason why this is quite difficult/impossible as the conductors get large.
@slcasner, a panel swap might be unavoidable since you only have 100A service. Do you have a part number of the panel, or can see a label or what the busbars are rated to? Some have busbars that are rated at higher than what the main breaker is, and are often sold just with different breakers, and you might find it was perhpas good already for 125A or 150A perhaps.
Your feeder wires may not be rated for 200A, but might be good for 125 or 150A already. So bear that in mind and you can perhaps do a PV ready panel with something like a 225A panel, but with 150A main breaker. If you go this route though you can still get tripped up by the Power Company not wanting to allow this, as they often suspect that you'll upgrade it yourself illegally the future. I have seen them use this reasoning to deny before. You'll not really want to mention derating to them. This is something that's normally fine with PV to get round 120 rule and your AHJ, but raises flags with the Power Company.
Panel selection is key though, and you'd want to find one that either has feed through lugs, or space to fit a large sub panel breaker that matches the size of the main. These exist, but as @Vines mentioned, its tricky because of wire bend radius, and its normally only the wide panels that afford this. If and when you get a Powerwall setup, and you are targeting to do whole home backup then, you'd be golden. Good luck, working with PG&E, they can be a nightmare!
Getting the wires out of that panel is less problematic and contentious than the other issues, but again this is something that a panel upgrade can help with.
Your feeder wires may not be rated for 200A, but might be good for 125 or 150A already. So bear that in mind and you can perhaps do a PV ready panel with something like a 225A panel, but with 150A main breaker. If you go this route though you can still get tripped up by the Power Company not wanting to allow this, as they often suspect that you'll upgrade it yourself illegally the future. I have seen them use this reasoning to deny before. You'll not really want to mention derating to them. This is something that's normally fine with PV to get round 120 rule and your AHJ, but raises flags with the Power Company.
Panel selection is key though, and you'd want to find one that either has feed through lugs, or space to fit a large sub panel breaker that matches the size of the main. These exist, but as @Vines mentioned, its tricky because of wire bend radius, and its normally only the wide panels that afford this. If and when you get a Powerwall setup, and you are targeting to do whole home backup then, you'd be golden. Good luck, working with PG&E, they can be a nightmare!
Getting the wires out of that panel is less problematic and contentious than the other issues, but again this is something that a panel upgrade can help with.
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@strangely, thanks for your comments. The busbars are rated for 125A. It is a Crouse-Hinds panel and the label states part numbers for a wire kit and breaker to upgrade to 125A. But I created a job request with PG&E so I could find out what would be allowed, and was told that any upgrade or panel replacement would require replacing the underground service wires. Now, perhaps I could get a different answer from a different person at PG&E if I pushed hard enough, but that doesn't seem like the most productive path.
I think the 125A rating will suffice, and if using the Backup Switch is not possible then probably the best solution would be to move all the branch circuits to a new panel and just use the the existing panel for the backfeed from the Gateway.
I think the 125A rating will suffice, and if using the Backup Switch is not possible then probably the best solution would be to move all the branch circuits to a new panel and just use the the existing panel for the backfeed from the Gateway.
PG&E's requirements are spelled in out in the very large Greenbook manual:
Greenbook Manual Online
Download the guide to PG&E utility requirements for establishing gas or electric service to new or remodeled customer installations.
www.pge.com
Document 063927 in the appendix covers underground residential conduit requirements. The required size for up to 125A is 2". So if you have a 2" conduit, you may be able to upsize to 125A fairly easily. The relevant section from page 2 of document 063927 is below.
Cheers, Wayne
Upgraded Panel
13. For upgraded panels where the new specified size of service conductor will fit in the existing conduit, it is not
necessary to upgrade the conduit to the currently specified size for the new panel if both of the following are met:
A. The maximum fill ratio is not exceeded.
B. The calculated cable pulling tensions along the conduit route is within limits of the new cable.
14. If the new panel is able to accommodate it, the existing service conductor may be reused provided it meets the load,
voltage drop, and flicker requirements of the new load. If the service conductor size must be upgraded, the existing
conduit must be proofed with a mandrel.
15. Notes 13 and 14 do not apply to the following conditions:
A. Direct buried or Cable-In-Conduit (CIC) service cables. Direct buried and CIC service cables need to be
replaced with approved service cable and installed in approved service conduit.
B. Upgraded electric meter panels that are within 36 inches of the gas service riser. The clearance requirements
in Greenbook Section 5.4.3., “Meter Set Clearance Requirements” must be met for upgraded and relocated
meter panels.
My problem is there is no conduit, it is direct-buried cable. So I've given up hope for a main panel upgrade and I think I can get by with 100A service and 120% of 125A on the busbars. The real problem would be to interpose a Gateway between the meter and the main panel if the Backup Switch can't be approved.
Indeed, if the Backup Switch won't be allowed in time for my installation, then the usual solution you describe is what I would expect. I have done some research to find a panel that I think could be mounted directly above the existing combo box and would provide the needed capacity, although there are some aspects of how that would be implemented that I'm unsure about. But my project advisor has said they would not need to move all the circuits out of the existing main panel and I don't know what they would propose to do otherwise. This is all at the rear of a side wall, so no aesthetic concerns.
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