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Doxxing discussion out of Market Action

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Has there been any confirmation of his story? From anyone other than Spiegel, QTR, or other denizens of the Twitter cesspool.

https://jalopnik.com/get-a-load-of-this-ridiculous-story-about-how-elon-musk-1827842961

Update 6:13 p.m.: Tesla spokesperson Dave Arnold sent along a statement, seemingly confirming some of the situation and, using Skeptic’s real name, said Skeptic’s employer “is a longtime Tesla supporter and was one of the first to purchase a Model S.”
 
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But I thought it might be interesting to provide a bit humane background (as that's what I'm most interested in).

It's not interesting and it is sad that this kind of intensely personal drama gets dragged up here. I am already appaled at the moderators for letting all the references to the guy's personal information slide stand but this takes the cake.

It's really not that hard to be ethically better than the short side. The bar is nearly at floor level. Yet it seems some TMC posters are masters in limbo dancing because they're still able to crawl under it.
 
It's not interesting and it is sad that this kind of intensely personal drama gets dragged up here. I am already appaled at the moderators for letting all the references to the guy's personal information slide stand but this takes the cake.

It's really not that hard to be ethically better than the short side. The bar is nearly at floor level. Yet it seems some TMC posters are masters in limbo dancing because they're still able to crawl under it.

LEAVE BRITTNEY MONTANA SKEPTIC ALONE!

Of all the people in the world to white knight, you are gonna pick that guy?

I guess we know who would have been first in line to be the pro-bono public defender for Hitler if he made it to trial? :D
 
It's not interesting and it is sad that this kind of intensely personal drama gets dragged up here. I am already appaled at the moderators for letting all the references to the guy's personal information slide stand but this takes the cake.

It's really not that hard to be ethically better than the short side. The bar is nearly at floor level. Yet it seems some TMC posters are masters in limbo dancing because they're still able to crawl under it.
I am sorry, but a person who knowingly and willfully tries to destroy something that you have invested in and does this with malice has zero right to protection of his/her comforts in my mind. They deserve to be ousted and made public. This kind of slander that he's been spewing is basically criminal and I don't see that these people deserve any kind of considerations from our side.
 
I am sorry, but a person who knowingly and willfully tries to destroy something that you have invested in and does this with malice has zero right to protection of his/her comforts in my mind. They deserve to be ousted and made public. This kind of slander that he's been spewing is basically criminal and I don't see that these people deserve any kind of considerations from our side.

If it’s slender, as you named it, why hasn’t Tesla even sued Seeking Alpha or Montana Skeptic for years?
 
LEAVE BRITTNEY MONTANA SKEPTIC ALONE!

Of all the people in the world to white knight, you are gonna pick that guy?

I take personal privacy seriously, which means that I often have to defend sleazy figures. That’s called standing up for your principles even at a cost.

And was the tasteless, unprovoked reference to Hitler your attempt to prove you are indeed a good limbo dancer?
 
I am sorry, but a person who knowingly and willfully tries to destroy something that you have invested in and does this with malice has zero right to protection of his/her comforts in my mind. They deserve to be ousted and made public. This kind of slander that he's been spewing is basically criminal and I don't see that these people deserve any kind of considerations from our side.

If it’s criminal, report it to the relevant authorities. Taking matters in your own hand is both symptomatic for, and cause of, failed states.
 
Well, Lawrence Fossi was committing trade libel and harassment. So he was legally liable. He knew that: he wouldn't have been hiding his identity unless he knew what he was doing was illegal. I can see why his employer didn't want him doing that.

There was a spate of cases of "anonymous" sources being used to spread libel and government propaganda at newspapers back in the 1990s. After that, major newspapers adopted a new policy: they would only grant anonymity to people who had a credible fear that they would be persecuted if their identity was known, *and* they would explain every time they used an anonymous source *why* they had granted anonymity.

If they had had journalistic standards, Seeking Alpha should never have granted anonymity to Montana Skeptic. ("I'm afraid that I'll be sued for the trade libel I am committing" is not a reasonable reason to seek anonymity.) They compounded this error by their policy of refusing to fact-check, even when evidence that he was lying about verifiable facts was presented to them on a silver platter.

"Montana" violated Seeking Alpha's own terms of service repeatedly, but they let him keep going. Probably because he got lots of clicks.

Obviously nobody should have their actual personal privacy -- home address, home phone number -- published. That's dangerous.

However, by the same token, when someone steps into the public sphere to make public statements, as Lawrence Fossi does, they should not be granted anonymity unless they have a good reason. Otherwise they can use anonymity to spread libel or commit harassment, and those things need to be stopped.

And no, the cops won't stop them. The cops are way too busy, and it's documented that they don't take online harassment seriously. It has to be done by private investigators and civil lawsuits.
 
I was one of the commenters on this articles who had their posts/comments deleted on SeekingAlpha. The reasons given for deleting my posts were quite flimsy - claiming that my comment was not related to the article, claiming I had included names of authors, claiming my comment was a personal attack etc. None of these were true, my comments were always polite and asking for explanation or refuting some information in the article. At one point, SeekingAlpha email informing me that my comment was deleted also stated that my account would be banned if I continued in this manner. So, I stopped reading seekingapha or posting for a long time.

Yep, a similar thing happened to me after I caught "Montana" making a verifiably false claim of fact. Seeking Alpha is actually a collaborator in "Montana's" stock manipulation.

I am glad he has been outed, he deserved it. I hope SeekingAlpha gets under pressure to apologize as well, since clearly they have been posting these articles with no regard for accuracy or truth. Shame on them.
 
Yep, a similar thing happened to me after I caught "Montana" making a verifiably false claim of fact. Seeking Alpha is actually a collaborator in "Montana's" stock manipulation.

If this is true, then why hasn't Tesla sued Seeking Alpha?

he wouldn't have been hiding his identity unless he knew what he was doing was illegal.

Does this apply to you too?
 
Quite possibly, but that was not ValueAnalyst's question.
OK, I'll respond to ValueAnalyst's question by stating that it's misleading.

Disclosing someone's name, industry background, and history of undisclosed conflicts of interest is NOT doxxing. It's actually what you have to do to expose online harassers like Mr. Fossi.

The "doxxing" incidents which have given "doxxing" a deservedly bad name targeted people whose names were ALREADY PUBLISHED, revealing information way beyond name and relevant industry background (home address, unlisted phone number, medical records, credit records, family members, etc.)

I would ask that people refrain from digging into irrelevant family history for Mr. Fossi. Please.
 
If it’s criminal, report it to the relevant authorities. Taking matters in your own hand is both symptomatic for, and cause of, failed states.
This is a stupid response.

Just so you know, a lot of well-informed people think the US is a failed state already. We still have to stop online harassment, trade libel, market manipulation, etc. We can't say "Well, we should pretend that calling the cops will work". That's just stupid.

Is America Becoming a Failed State?
Is America a Failing State?
America The Failed State

In particular, it's been demonstrated that it's very hard to get police to act against online harassers, even when they're making violent threats. Civil law has been more effective.
https://jezebel.com/the-cops-dont-care-about-violent-online-threats-what-d-1682577343

And in the UK:
Woman who has been a victim of harrassment for four years says

Here's one of the better lists of advice regarding what to do when the police won't help:
What To Do When The Police Won’t Help
 
I wonder if Rahr knew how much time and energy Fossi had spent researching and attacking Tesla.
I'm *certain* he didn't. Why do you think Lawrence Fossi was using a fake name to run his trade libels against Tesla and his harassment of reporters who liked Teslas? *Because he knew his boss wouldn't approve*, probably.

It’s mind boggling really. Surely a good portion of it would have been during work days? Of course I don’t know exactly how a “work day” would be quantified in such a position.
 
Tell me how I, an investor in TSLA and therefore impacted by this miscreant Fossi can sue him when I'm in Estonia, he's in the US. How would that work out? I go to the local police here in Estonia and make a claim of an internet anonymous guy writing libel or slander about a company (both in US) that affects my investment. How would that work? How could I sue or report him in US being a citizen of Estonia? The only true recourse I have would be to oust him and get him to stop doing it online somehow or getting the masses to know who he is to discredit him. There really is no other realistic option.
 

  1. 6m6 minutes ago
    Did you call Montana Skeptic?

    2 replies0 retweets3 likes


Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk



Replying to @SportBiomech
Never heard of this girl. Was probably her Mom.

3:39 AM - 26 Jul 2018

Elon Musk‏Verified account @elonmusk
Replying to @AskDrStupid @SportBiomech
They grow up so quickly …

DjBqk1-VAAAEiLO.jpg


Outch.... thats a clear language!
 
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However, by the same token, when someone steps into the public sphere to make public statements, as Lawrence Fossi does, they should not be granted anonymity unless they have a good reason. Otherwise they can use anonymity to spread libel or commit harassment, and those things need to be stopped..

Then I can only conclude that we have a radically different notion of what it means to live in a free society. It’s no coincidence that the reason you give why anonymity is bad per se, is exactly the same that despotic and authocratic regimes use to legitimize regulations that squash unregulated reporting, introduce mandatory licenses for bloggers and more.

Many here are mistaking anonymity with unaccountability and their own judgments with judicial due process. When you claim MS is guilty of a crime and therefore it is right to deprive him of his rights without judicial review, well that is not the society I would want to live in. And that’s entirely regardless of the fact if you are actually right on his guilt.
 
Then I can only conclude that we have a radically different notion of what it means to live in a free society. It’s no coincidence that the reason you give why anonymity is bad per se, is exactly the same that despotic and authocratic regimes use to legitimize regulations that squash unregulated reporting, introduce mandatory licenses for bloggers and more.

Many here are mistaking anonymity with unaccountability and their own judgments with judicial due process. When you claim MS is guilty of a crime and therefore it is right to deprive him of his rights without judicial review, well that is not the society I would want to live in. And that’s entirely regardless of the fact if you are actually right on his guilt.

What right is he being denied? There is no rule on the Internet that protects anonymity. As far as I can tell he left clues in his articles about his identity and someone pieced them together. If he truly wanted to be anonymous he would have never dropped hints as to who he really was.

It's absurd to say that all anonymity must be protected because humans are not all altruistic and some are bad actors. If you spread false information about an entity with intent to harm that is not the same as someone speaking out against a totalitarian regime.
 
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Many here are mistaking anonymity with unaccountability
No. you're the one making the mistake. The problem is precisely that Mr. Fossi was using anonymity to achieve unaccountability.

Now he has achieved accountability. And apparently Mr. Fossi doesn't like accountability.

Contrast Anton Wahlmann. You may note that Mr. Wahlman has spread FUD continuously under his *own name*, so that we can look up his track record (of settling a case admitting securities fraud) for ourselves. (He has also been scrupulous about his reporting of facts, I must say.) He can continue to spread his FUD. Probably will. That's his right in a free society.

The use of "anonymity" to spread libels and dishonest government propaganda in newspapers was a serious problem in the 1990s, which is why newspapers started the policy of explaining *why* they had granted anonymity whenever they did so. So now, you'll read "because the source feared that they would be attacked by death squads", or whatever.

The newspapers *stopped* granting anonymity willy-nilly *because* of the abuse of it to achieve unaccountability, including abuse *by government officials*.

Seeking Alpha, by contrast, granted anonymity to someone who was using it to achieve unaccountability.

The sort of criminal trolls who doxx and swat people *hide behind anonymity*.

The cops *do nothing* (there's a Jezebel article about it), and the recommendation for those with money is to track their names down yourself with PIs, file for restraining orders, file lawsuits, and contact the DA directly.

Putin loves the idea of having total anonymity for his *spies* like Maria Butina. We are under no obligation, in a free society, to grant anonymity to anyone and everyone while they make public claims. That's ridiculous.
 
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