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Driving on Sunshine
- Thread starter dhrivnak
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- Energy Environment Policy
I have the same SMA inverter, but I've yet to try charging my Model S with it. Did you test it by turning off the main panel?
Unfortunately, I think the latest firmware update will likely make solar charging impractical. I think the car will see the variable power output from the PV and ramp down the current even more the get any reasonable charging rate.
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I think it's most likely a selection bias. Tesla owners who care not also PV owners are less likely to read this thread and respond to the poll.
For the SunnyBoy SMA to charge my Roadster I just flipped the stand alone switch. I agree it likely will mot work on a day with clouds but did work fine on a sunny day.
I agree with Brit4864 regarding the lack of incentives, but in a different way. Before I had my PV system installed, I called SolarCity to get a quote. To my surprise, they do not operate in FL (aka "Sunshine State"). I think this is because the electricity cost here in FL are relatively inexpensive ($0.12/kW) all day long. Without a higher electricity rate to sell back to the grid, SolarCity would have a tough time offering the type of low cost leasing options which are prevalent in CA or other NE states. The large upfront cost would also turn off most people from making this investment. I know it did for us initially. We were fortunately enough to get for the rebate from the local utility company. When combined with the 30% federal tax credit, the ROI for our 11.75 kW system will be less than 3 years.
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I think to correctly simulate a black out situation, the switch on the main panel needs to be off. Otherwise, you may be simply charging from the grid or at least inverter + grid, instead of the inverter alone (at least that was my understanding from our PV installer). Of course, they are new to this inverter as well and weren't completely sure on all of its operations. Hopefully, we never have to find out in real life...
I do not believe so as when you flip the switch on the inverter it goes into an islanding mode. The ONLY plug that is energized is the one below the switch. Below is from the owners manual and it tracks my testing.
5 Secure Power Operation
If the inverter has a secure power supply, you can use the energy from the PV plant directly via the connected socket-outlet in the event of a grid failure. The inverter automatically regulates the energy supply of the secure power socket-outlet according to the solar irradiation on the PV plant. While the secure power socket-outlet is in use, the inverter is disconnected from the grid and does therefore not feed into the power distribution grid. The secure power socket-outlet can not be used over-night,
because there is no solar irradiation available for the supply of the socket-outlet.
Requirements
☐ The inverter must be showing the error message 202, 203, 204, 205 or 801.
☐ There must be sufficient solar irradiation.
☐ Load with a maximum power of 1,500 W
Procedure for the secure power operation
1. Switch off the inverter miniature circuit-breaker.
2. Switch on the socket-outlet.
3. Plug in the load.
4. Switch on the load.
Do not connect any devices that require a stable electricity supply The power available during secure power operation depends on the solar irradiation on the
PV modules. Therefore, the power can fluctuate considerably depending on the weather or may not be available at all. In the event of solar irradiation being too low or overload of the socket-outlet, the voltage supply of the secure socket-outlet will also be interrupted. 20 seconds after interruption, re-establishment of the voltage supply will be attempted automatically. This can lead to the inadvertent starting of the connected loads.
• Do not operate any devices via the secure power socket-outlet that are dependent on a
stable electricity supply for their reliable operation.
• Ensure that the loads that are connected to the secure power socket-outlet do not require
more than 1,500 W.
Disconnection of the inverter due to insufficient irradiation
When the inverter disconnects itself due to insufficient irradiation, you have to switch back on the socket-outlet as soon as irradiation is sufficient.
Procedure once the power distribution grid becomes available again
If the power distribution grid becomes available again during secure power operation, the inverter
remains in secure power operation. The inverter only starts to feed in to the power distribution grid
again once the load has been disconnected and the miniature circuit-breaker is switched back on.
1. Disconnect the load.
2. Remove the plug for the load from the secure power socket-outlet.
3. Switch off the secure power socket-outlet so that the inverter begins feeding into the power
distribution grid again.
4. Switch the inverter miniature circuit-breaker back on.
Hopefully your installer added the switch and outlet as they did not come with the unit. They are located on mine directly below the touch screen. I was actually charging my Roadster in the shot below.
My installation comes with a similar switch and outlet as well. I have the same SMA Sunny Boy inverter model, with the same features. As I read the instructions from the manual, the first requirement is "The inverter must be showing the error message 202, 203, 204, 205 or 801." While I haven't looked up the error codes, I suspect one of them is lost of power from the grid. I'm only saying that in order to properly simulate loss of power to the inverter, the switch on the main panel (not the on/off switch for the inverter pictured above) would likely have to be off.
Hi, I'm a fresh new signup on the site.
The picture shows one of my current PV-charged EVs, the other one is an electric-assist bicycle:smile:
I had self-installed the 3.3kW array on my roof in 2011, bought the Mitsu in 2012.
I hope to add a Tesla to the lineup later this year.
Wow it is looking like 60% of Tesla owners already have solar with over 20% more seriously thinking about it. I hope the poll is representative but with only 136 votes we have well under 1% of the members represented here. If you do have a solar system please post a picture.
My system has supplied over 90% of our power over the last 8 months.
My system has supplied over 90% of our power over the last 8 months.
I have a 9 kW system installed on my 60' shed, turned up in December of 2013. It offsets about 1/4 of my electricity usage, or about $1150/year at 9 cents per kWh (my volume rate above 2 MWh/month).
I'm limited by Illinois' incentive - maximum of 25% of the project cost or $10,000 by an Illinois-approved installer (if self-installed, only equipment costs are eligible). So I can only do a ~9 kW system improvement every year. This year I am likely going to go with a 9.7 kW system on the roof of the house based on micro-inverters rather than the string inverter for the shed. I will go with smaller 255W panels to work around roof obstacles and fit 3 rows in place. This means that roughly half my electricity usage will come from PV (yes, I am a giant consumer of energy - lots of refrigeration units to support an orchard and my home - I range between 3 and 6 MWh/month).
So far my system has generated just over 5.25 MWh of electricity:
(PS - you can see just how ugly flexible metal conduit is... I would have preferred rigid conduit - either EMT or RNC. I prefer to keep things to squarish lines rather than just rounded wherever the heck it wants to go.)
I'm limited by Illinois' incentive - maximum of 25% of the project cost or $10,000 by an Illinois-approved installer (if self-installed, only equipment costs are eligible). So I can only do a ~9 kW system improvement every year. This year I am likely going to go with a 9.7 kW system on the roof of the house based on micro-inverters rather than the string inverter for the shed. I will go with smaller 255W panels to work around roof obstacles and fit 3 rows in place. This means that roughly half my electricity usage will come from PV (yes, I am a giant consumer of energy - lots of refrigeration units to support an orchard and my home - I range between 3 and 6 MWh/month).
So far my system has generated just over 5.25 MWh of electricity:
(PS - you can see just how ugly flexible metal conduit is... I would have preferred rigid conduit - either EMT or RNC. I prefer to keep things to squarish lines rather than just rounded wherever the heck it wants to go.)
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Xenoilphobe
Well-Known Member
That is EFFing awesome! I did a similar setup - have and 11KW system using AC micro inverters on the AUO250MAO product. My peak generation is about 70 KW per day. My realistic generation year round is about 50 KW per day average.
Wow FlasherZ. You use a lot of power, about 6X more than our family. But it looks like you are making great progress on generating that yourself. I take it you will add about 10 KW/year to take full advantage of state incentives. Here in TN we have no state incentives but it still makes sense to move to solar.
Without our state incentives and today's power prices, there is no way that Solar makes any sense for someone in IL. I'm in a rural co-op and so my rate (@ 9 cents) is much higher than the rates paid by those in Ameren territory (4.9 cents). They estimate a 9 kW system around here will generate about 12,000 kWh per annum. Installed system prices are right around $4.00/watt (last year's system was installed at $3.80, this year came in at $4.00/$4.22 from the two suppliers I have proposals from). With only the 30% federal tax credit, a 9 kW system @ $4/W installed is $25,200. The static payback is 23.3 years, just shy of their lifetimes - and that's hoping you don't have any inverter problems in that time frame, or it makes it a negative ROI.
Of course, that makes a whole lot of assumptions, the biggest one being the cost of power. Escalating power prices @ 3% gives us payback @ year 18 - still not all that great (year 10 with IL payback). The annuity opportunity of the out-of-pocket amount easily exceeds that with average 5% return. We can have all sorts of conversations as to whether we need to consider inflation, etc., but that just makes everything complex.
Bottom line - to be "worth it", we really need either higher prices or better incentives, otherwise, it doesn't "make sense".
I think at some point in the not too distant future there will likely be a carbon tax that will benefit renewables. We have relatively low power rated $.085/KWh. As such I calculate my payback at 17 years. Not great but better than CD's, corporate bonds or municipal bonds and definitely more secure than the stock market.
To add to FlasherZ's comments, Illinois's renewable rebate program, while attractive on paper, is far from guaranteed. The state allocates a grand total of 1.5 million dollars per year to fund their solar and wind rebate. This princely sum is intended to cover the rebate for all solar PV, all solar hot water, all wind, and all solar pool heating installations for all residences, commercial properties, non-profits, government entities, schools, etc. in a state with 13 million residents. I figure this would cover the rebate for a couple of hundred installations. Needless to say the 2014 money ran out some time ago...
Actually, funny enough they didn't use all of it in the first round of applications!
Each year, the application period for rebate projects opens up from Sept 1 - Oct 15, and their method is "random lottery" (this changed last year, prior to that it was first come, first served). Last year, I understand they cleared every PV system in the state that met application guidelines. My installer called me in April, after having been contacted by the state - he said they had not used all the money and were going to run a second round of applications to be installed by May 31.
The reason we're waiting now is because we're waiting for the next application period (Sept 1). The appropriations haven't been made for FY2015, but they expect them to be settled by August for a Sept 1 application date, same process.
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I suspect we won't have cheap power forever and the price will go up disproportionately to inflation at some point in the near future. I don't want to risk this thread devolving into another policy thread over carbon taxes and such, so I won't go into my thoughts on the potential for a tax, the politicians who would enable it, the effect on average consumers, and all that.
It's certainly not an investment strategy, I think I could do far better than my electricity return over 25 years. Interest rates won't stick near zero forever.
That's interesting. When I got my solar quote in the spring of 2013, the installer wasn't all that optimistic that I'd get the rebate if I applied. It's kind of depressing though. Assuming for simplicity that the entire budget is used for residential solar, it would cover only 1000 kw installed (rebate of $1.50 per w). The fact that the tiny budget was not even used last year must mean very little solar is being installed in IL.
Net 0 living, is it realistically possible?
The dream of many environmentalists and conservatives is to be self-sufficient in energy use. But many believe that is only a distant dream. But I am finding out that dream may be far closer than many people realize. Attached is our last electric bill for $7.21, the connection fee. For the past 4 months we paid just this minimum and actually generated 1,271 more KWh than we have used and that INCLUDES about 700 miles/month of driving in our electric car.
Even during the depth of winter we generated over half of our power and we have generated so much excess this spring I doubt we will pay over $7.21 until next winter. And even then our electric bills are a modest $50/month; which includes the equivalent of two “tanks of fuel” for the EV.
Not only have we dramatically cut our emissions, something the climate scientists say is a must; but we are saving $3,500/year in what we were paying for fossil fuels. With a 25 year production guarantee on the solar system I should be set for the rest of my life.
With households responsible for about 40% of the emissions in the USA we CAN make a difference! I am also attaching a graph showing how our solar system has produced over the last 9 months.
The dream of many environmentalists and conservatives is to be self-sufficient in energy use. But many believe that is only a distant dream. But I am finding out that dream may be far closer than many people realize. Attached is our last electric bill for $7.21, the connection fee. For the past 4 months we paid just this minimum and actually generated 1,271 more KWh than we have used and that INCLUDES about 700 miles/month of driving in our electric car.
Even during the depth of winter we generated over half of our power and we have generated so much excess this spring I doubt we will pay over $7.21 until next winter. And even then our electric bills are a modest $50/month; which includes the equivalent of two “tanks of fuel” for the EV.
Not only have we dramatically cut our emissions, something the climate scientists say is a must; but we are saving $3,500/year in what we were paying for fossil fuels. With a 25 year production guarantee on the solar system I should be set for the rest of my life.
With households responsible for about 40% of the emissions in the USA we CAN make a difference! I am also attaching a graph showing how our solar system has produced over the last 9 months.
green1
Active Member
I definitely live in the wrong jurisdiction...
1) even if I consumed zero electricity my bill would still be at least $25/mo (not $7.50)
2) I am not allowed to produce more than I consume on an annualized basis
3) All production not instantly used is sold to the utility at $0.08/kWh, all electricity used that was not simultaneously being produced is bought back at approximately $0.15 (the $0.08 plus various fees)
4) there are no municipal, provincial, or federal incentives of any form available for going solar
End result pushes the payoff for solar a lot further down the road than I would like... I'm still trying, but it's painful...
1) even if I consumed zero electricity my bill would still be at least $25/mo (not $7.50)
2) I am not allowed to produce more than I consume on an annualized basis
3) All production not instantly used is sold to the utility at $0.08/kWh, all electricity used that was not simultaneously being produced is bought back at approximately $0.15 (the $0.08 plus various fees)
4) there are no municipal, provincial, or federal incentives of any form available for going solar
End result pushes the payoff for solar a lot further down the road than I would like... I'm still trying, but it's painful...
bollar
Disgruntled Member
We have a 17kW / 68 panel system that covers 90% of our consumption and 75% of our utility bill. Our net-metering agreement with the local cooperative has monthly true-ups, so eight months of the year, we're gifting 400-600 kWh back to the utility, but in the summer, we're buying 600-800 kWh each month to cover our A/C. We have $27 in monthly fees, but buy and sell rates in our DG agreement are identical, so we don't have any friction between buying & selling. The cooperative doesn't offer rebates and the all-in rate is 9.6 cents / kWh, so we're looking at an 11 year ROI. And this is even with us installing ourselves.
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