Dumb Winter Range Question

[AlanSubie4Life]

I think I've already talked myself out of the trip, but if I do decide to do it, I'll absolutely report back. A few follow-up questions just because I'm curious, though.

Why supercharge only on arrival? Isn't it better to have a warm battery from the start? Also, ID weather around Moscow is pretty much identical to MT so that's neat... do you have winter tires on with the 2/3rd range you're seeing?

You’ll make this trip no problem if the weather is clear and fairly calm. Inflate those tires to 42-45 and prewarm the cabin. I have never done a true winter trip but if you start at 100% you will be fine. You don’t even need to worry about your speed.

It’s 600 feet of gain so assuming no headwinds you’ll do slightly better on return.

Establish destination charging, or Supercharge on arrival when the battery is warm, or it will be extremely slow.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Yes, we're staying at the hotel in Sheridan with the super charger, so charging on arrival is a given. The trip planner is showing 141 miles distance between cities, so I was going off of that and just rounding up 9 miles.

So yeah, there's no charging stops along the ~140 mile route, but there's a supercharger on arrival. The car is rated at 320 miles range, so I *should* be safe even if it's as bad as 50% range loss with these tires/weather/climate control, but it felt close enough to make me a smidge nervous. I'm betting there's like a 95% chance that I'd make it just fine with ~15% charge left, but yeah... without having a great feel for the car's range at the moment, the range anxiety thing feels a little real.

I understand and it’s completely natural, and additionally you have to do what’s best for you and your family! But...

Range loss is GROSSLY over stated - the real trouble is when you leave the car for a few days in freezing temperatures not plugged in, drive somewhere and repeat etc., then you’ll notice a lot of energy loss mostly from increased vampire drain and the effort to get the battery to operating temps. For single continuous trips, the loss is a lot less severe than you think.

I’d be happy to send you any TeslaFi data you’re interested in, and I have a Performance which had 20” wheels last winter (I now have 19”) and never had issues with that kind of range. Now sure, 200 miles gets more interesting with really cold temps, high speeds, elevation and cabin heat close to 70.

If you go to your car now, put the SC in WY as your designation, click to ‘energy’ and look at the trip planner, let us know the arrival charge amount the car estimates and your current SoC. Also what is your car’s lifetime wh/mi currently?

 

[justinlindh]

If you go to your car now, put the SC in WY as your designation, click to ‘energy’ and look at the trip planner, let us know the arrival charge amount the car estimates and your current SoC. Also what is your car’s lifetime wh/mi currently?

Here's what I see when I plug the SC into my trip planner: https://photos.app.goo.gl/GjEcUBBw3CbCJeKW6

The car's only charged at 70% and it thinks I'd have 16% remaining, so that seems like a great sign. I'm not sure whether it's completely accounted for the new tires yet, though, since I've only driven about 40 miles on them.

How do I find lifetime wh/mi?

 

[Manitoba Keith]

Yes, we're staying at the hotel in Sheridan with the super charger, so charging on arrival is a given. The trip planner is showing 141 miles distance between cities, so I was going off of that and just rounding up 9 miles.

So yeah, there's no charging stops along the ~140 mile route, but there's a supercharger on arrival. The car is rated at 320 miles range, so I *should* be safe even if it's as bad as 50% range loss with these tires/weather/climate control, but it felt close enough to make me a smidge nervous. I'm betting there's like a 95% chance that I'd make it just fine with ~15% charge left, but yeah... without having a great feel for the car's range at the moment, the range anxiety thing feels a little real.

Personally, I wouldn't have the slightest worry about getting there. Sure, keep an eye on energy usage, but don't overthink it. You will make it with plenty to spare.
Here is something to try. Put your destination into route planner. After it calculates your route, go to the bottom of the route and you will see how much energy you will have left upon arrival (even shows round trip but that will be negative). If you currently have 80% on your battery, add 20% to the amount shown that you will arrive with. If 70, add 30% - assuming you will leave with 100%.
Bet it is about 35% or >. So, don't sweat it. Just have a normal drive and enjoy it. Have a great trip.
Beat me to it. So you will have a GREAT MARGIN!

 

[justinlindh]

OK, these replies are making me feel much more confident. I think we'll be just fine. I'll plan on ensuring it's at 100% charge, start the trip a little below the speed limit (~65MPH), and ramp that up as I get closer/feel more confident.

Thanks again, everybody.

 

[eprosenx]

Yeah, this was my thinking. I pre-heat in the mornings (via turning climate control on through the app) and it drops charge a few percentage to do it, so I think that pulls more than the 120V is able to provide. I'd planned on charging to 100% at home but stopping at the super charger mostly just to warm everything up without draining too much battery. It *seemed* like a decent idea, but might not work like I'd originally thought after reading some of these replies.

The dryer plug is, unfortunately, just a little bit out of reach of the car's mobile connector. The wall charger will help all of this a ton and it's just sitting here, staring at me, until the electrician can make it out. Hopefully soon!

So if you want to stop at the supercharger it certainly won’t hurt! It may not be time efficient, but hey, I find superchargers to be kind of fun. If I was going to do that I would do a pre heat at home for a decent amount of time (15 minutes), and then I would set the supercharger as my destination so it heated the battery on the way.

If it was me, I would hack together some kind of 240v charging solution temporarily, but I have significant experience and tools and parts laying around (I could put together at least a half dozen solutions just with parts on hand... lol). I actually have a pre built assembly for hooking directly to a breaker panel if needed.

I don’t know when your trip is, but you could get an extension cord from EVSE Adapters that is specifically for EV charging that has a NEMA 14-50 plug and receptacle end but it has the neutral pin missing on the plug end so it can also plug into a NEMA 14-30 dryer receptacle. You would need the Tesla 14-50 adapter to use this cord.

Actually, we need to determine if your dryer receptacle is a 14-30 (more modern) or a 10-30 (older). Either will work, but if you get that extension cord then you need an adapter for 10-30.

If you are desperate and on a short timeline, go to the hardware/RV store and get a 14-50 extension cord. Cut the neutral pin off of it and it will fit in a 14-30 receptacle (assuming that is what your dryer receptacle is). You will need a 14-50 Tesla adapter to use this, or in a pinch you could use the 14-30 adapter from Tesla with the neutral pin cut off. Note that this extension cord modification makes it extremely dangerous for any use case other than an EV. You also MUST set the car to a max of 24 amps charging if connected to a 30a dryer circuit. This again assumes you don’t have a 10-30 receptacle for the dryer. If you did, you might be able to locally source a 10-30 plug and put it on the end of that extension cord.

Good luck! And please report back on your experience!

 

[justinlindh]

The tips on the 14-30 adapter are greatly appreciated, but with the HPWC being installed next week, I may just rely on the 120V and super chargers for now. The destination hotel has a V2 super charger, so I should be able to find plenty of time to get it back to 100% for the return trip.

I'll report back on what I wind up doing, for sure! These forums are great; can't thank everybody enough for all of the advice and insights.

 

[AlanSubie4Life]

The tips on the 14-30 adapter are greatly appreciated, but with the HPWC being installed next week, I may just rely on the 120V and super chargers for now. The destination hotel has a V2 super charger, so I should be able to find plenty of time to get it back to 100% for the return trip.

I'll report back on what I wind up doing, for sure! These forums are great; can't thank everybody enough for all of the advice and insights.

Sounds like you’ll be fine. Regarding the car’s estimate of your arrival charge - yes, you will be just fine, but keep in mind it can adjust significantly if conditions are adverse - and it can take a little while to become accurate. I’ve noticed more recently that the predicted arrival charge will change by 5-10% if I “redo” the Navigation en route. Very strange.

I would recommend in winter (and even in summer) charging so that you have predicted arrival charge of 20%, because of these unknowns. This will mean you’ll never be worried about making it to a Supercharger, you don’t have to worry about having to freeze to make it , and you can always really gun it as you get closer and arrive closer to 10%.

Again, in your situation you will have no problem. This is a good opportunity to make a note of the prediction, do the drive in a way you feel is comfortable, and then see how good the prediction was. Usually I find it to be a little optimistic - but I have a tire mismatch relative to its internal model for 20” wheels. Accuracy depends a lot on headwinds, which it can’t currently determine in advance. So it adjusts predictions as it monitors your consumption.

The easy availability of destination charging makes this no problem. The Tesla will be fine. No need to visit a Supercharger (do you mean the hotel has Level 2 destination charging...not a V2 Supercharger?), except possibly initially due to your 120V setup (but it very likely that stop isn’t needed if you make efforts to get to 100% charge at home).

 

[dmurphy]

OK, these replies are making me feel much more confident. I think we'll be just fine. I'll plan on ensuring it's at 100% charge, start the trip a little below the speed limit (~65MPH), and ramp that up as I get closer/feel more confident.

Thanks again, everybody.

I wouldn't think twice about it. Charge the vehicle up to 100%, get in, and get to gettin'. Great way to learn how it performs.

2 weeks after I bought my Model 3 in April, I did a trip that was 260 miles each way. No worries at all - car did great, and I was super pleased to stretch it legs a bit.

Your 150 mile trip - even adjusting for winter - isn't one I'd even think about. Just get in and drive.

 

[Big Earl]

I predict you’ll use 70-75% of the battery on this trip. I wouldn’t worry about it. Check for head winds before you go and adjust your speed if necessary.

 

[AKinDC]

I predict you’ll use 70-75% of the battery on this trip. I wouldn’t worry about it. Check for head winds before you go and adjust your speed if necessary.

I'd argue that if you're concerned enough that you have to check for head winds, you probably should drive your ICE car that day.

 

[henchman24]

Spent all last winter cruising around Colorado/Wyoming area with my P3D+. Even in dead cold with heat and 20", 200+ mi isn't unattainable if you pay slight attention. Just charge up to 95-100%, input Sheridan on the navigation, if the number starts at ~20% and above drive normally... if you see it dip below 20% or starts below, drive 5-10mph under. I personally wouldn't even think twice about 150 mile trip.

 

[Big Earl]

I'd argue that if you're concerned enough that you have to check for head winds, you probably should drive your ICE car that day.

Nonsense. A 20 MPH headwind can increase your consumption by 33% on a trip like that.

Knowledge is power. Check the weather before embarking on a trip, especially in the winter. There is no reason to drive a fossil when you can do it in an EV with a little extra planning.

 

[M3BlueGeorgia]

I just recently received my LR AWD last week and am trying to plan a trip tomorrow. I've been reading a lot of things online about degraded winter range, so other owner's opinions about whether I'd be safe to make this trip would be massively helpful in alleviating my range anxiety.

Details:
- Michelin X-ICE3 tires
- Billings, MT -> Sheridan, WY (~150 miles, mostly interstate @75MPH)
- Between 0 and 30 degrees F for most of the trip
- Family and luggage in car (~500lbs weight)
- Cabin heat would be left at 69F (seat warmers are great, but one of the seats is a kid's car seat so I need to keep cabin temps reasonable)
- Would supercharge to 100% at the start

Normally I wouldn't be concerned about a 150 miles trip, but there's no charging options in between and it's dangerous to stop in most of the areas along this route. I'm concerned that the winter tires and cold temperatures could make this trip a close call. Are those concerns unfounded? I've been reading some things about how cold temps + winter tires can cut distance by up to 50%, which freaks me out a little.

Thanks a ton for any advice, even if that advice is just telling me that I'm being dumb to worry.

Turn off A/C

Set the destination in the Navigator and watch the expected arrival percentage like a hawk. The forecast will take a little while to stabilize, say 30 - 40 miles.

If it drops below 12% and keeps dropping, reduce speed by 2mph every 5 miles until the expected arrival percentage stops dropping.
Eventually you'll find the optimum speed.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Here's what I see when I plug the SC into my trip planner: https://photos.app.goo.gl/GjEcUBBw3CbCJeKW6

The car's only charged at 70% and it thinks I'd have 16% remaining, so that seems like a great sign. I'm not sure whether it's completely accounted for the new tires yet, though, since I've only driven about 40 miles on them.

How do I find lifetime wh/mi?

Most people use Trip B to track their lifetime usage, but if you haven't it doesn't matter.

So the car is saying you'll use about 55% of the battery, it looks like there's some downhill so you're losing some elevation. The return trip will likely be higher, but even so a 90% charge gives you a huge buffer.

Here's a small trip I did this last weekend in NYC.

OK this is NOT typical - so here's a trip I did last winter in the mountains. 200 miles, 90% of the battery.

 

[justinlindh]

Yeah, I'll need to have climate control on. If it was just me, I'd be fine with a coat and a seat warmer... but wife and kid won't be happy with a cold ride. If I'm halfway there and I'm showing uncomfortable margins then I'll have people toss on a coat and turn it down, but I'll plan on a steady 68 - 69F the whole ride, I think.

That TeslaFi data that you posted is neat. I need to sign up (shoot me a referral link, if you like!)

Monitoring energy consumption and slowing down a bit seems like it ought to make for a safe enough margin, so I'm going to plan on it. The only concerning thing I've seen is RFernatt's link (MASTER THREAD: Winter charging issues, frozen charge ports, road trips) where they didn't use climate control and it may have been a bit warmer but they still used 71% of the battery for 150 miles, but even then, I should have a safe enough margin.

 

[Wooloomooloo]

Yeah, I'll need to have climate control on. If it was just me, I'd be fine with a coat and a seat warmer... but wife and kid won't be happy with a cold ride. If I'm halfway there and I'm showing uncomfortable margins then I'll have people toss on a coat and turn it down, but I'll plan on a steady 68 - 69F the whole ride, I think.

That TeslaFi data that you posted is neat. I need to sign up (shoot me a referral link, if you like!)

Monitoring energy consumption and slowing down a bit seems like it ought to make for a safe enough margin, so I'm going to plan on it. The only concerning thing I've seen is RFernatt's link (MASTER THREAD: Winter charging issues, frozen charge ports, road trips) where they didn't use climate control and it may have been a bit warmer but they still used 71% of the battery for 150 miles, but even then, I should have a safe enough margin.

I sent you a code through a conversation.

Take de-icer with you, but I'd say that for any car. I think you can keep the heat around 68-69 with no issue.

I'd love too hear how it turns out.

 

[duanra]

I agree on the statement for the wind. It counts a lot.

 

[dmurphy]

Yeah, I'll need to have climate control on. If it was just me, I'd be fine with a coat and a seat warmer... but wife and kid won't be happy with a cold ride. If I'm halfway there and I'm showing uncomfortable margins then I'll have people toss on a coat and turn it down, but I'll plan on a steady 68 - 69F the whole ride, I think.

That TeslaFi data that you posted is neat. I need to sign up (shoot me a referral link, if you like!)

Monitoring energy consumption and slowing down a bit seems like it ought to make for a safe enough margin, so I'm going to plan on it. The only concerning thing I've seen is RFernatt's link (MASTER THREAD: Winter charging issues, frozen charge ports, road trips) where they didn't use climate control and it may have been a bit warmer but they still used 71% of the battery for 150 miles, but even then, I should have a safe enough margin.

have you tried www.abetterrouteplanner.com ?

I plugged in about the worst scenario possible - 500 extra pounds of weight, 0 degrees, 10mph headwinds, in a heavy snowstorm. Still no problem. It calculated at 479wh/mi. I can’t imagine it being anywhere near that.

 

[Manitoba Keith]

Nonsense. A 20 MPH headwind can increase your consumption by 33% on a trip like that.

Knowledge is power. Check the weather before embarking on a trip, especially in the winter. There is no reason to drive a fossil when you can do it in an EV with a little extra planning.

So true. You won't believe how much a tail wind helps or how much a headwind hurts. If possible draft a semi with distance set at 1. I started with mine set at 7 but then realized the computer has MUCH better reflexes than I do and a semi takes longer to stop - unless it hits a rock or such - LOL
Bet you won't need A/C - LOL. You will most likely need defrost possibly with fan at 6-7. I set my interior at 67 to 69 even at -20 travel temperatures. No need to freeze.